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Seriously??? This is making us safer?
Topic Started: Apr 12 2011, 07:46 AM (1,360 Views)
KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Horace: It's not a distinction without a difference.
If there is no Law Enforcement at the airport, then at some point the TSA simply has to let you go, as they can't hold you indefinitely, and they can't press charges, arrest, or in any way interpret/enforce the law.
It's also an important difference, because it explains why they can do what they do, as law enforcement would be subject to different rules regarding "reasonable search."
I agree that it probably makes no difference to most flying - but so what? The discussion isn't whether or not people are affected by the TSA's status as law enforcement - the question by Ax, was challenging the notion that they weren't/aren't law enforcement - which clearly they aren't.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Copper
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Shortstop
KlavierBauer
Apr 13 2011, 10:53 AM

I agree that it probably makes no difference to most flying - but so what? The discussion isn't whether or not people are affected by the TSA's status as law enforcement - the question by Ax, was challenging the notion that they weren't/aren't law enforcement - which clearly they aren't.

You know how when you go to Disney World everyone is a cast member?

It's a lot like that.

At Disney they look and act like princesses, and we have fun pretending they are.

Same thing with TSA.

It's just for show. They can handle most old ladies and children, but any terrorist worthy of the title wouldn't have too much trouble with them.

Imagine if a wicked witch got loose in Disney World - same thing.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
They clearly are, in every colloquial sense of the phrase "law enforcement" (if not every technical sense, as you and Frank are using). And clearly there is no meaningful difference if one has to assume that police officers might not be able to show up in time or TSA would have to let you go. What's the time limit? Has this "meaningful difference" ever actually happened in practice? Was a guy six year old girl trying to carry explosives or firearms onto an airplane ever let go because cops couldn't get there in time?
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
Airports have assigned law enforcement officers whose sole function is to patrol the airports. Again: This is like saying that mall cops are law enforcement officers.
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
I can understand where a police officer would bristle at the notion of TSA officials being considered "peers". But other than risking offending real police officers, there is no reason why the general public should not look at it that way. It's simple and practically accurate.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Horace:
Again - there is a difference, in more than name.

If I show up to the Boulder County courthouse for a traffic violation, I have to go through a metal detector to get in (no full body searches, as law enforcement requires probable cause to do this). If I pull a weapon at that point and open fire, I will be shot, because the folks manning the metal detectors are Boulder County Sheriff's Deputies, and are law enforcement, and *can* enforce the law, with lethal force.

If I show up at the same metal detector in the airport, and pull my gun and start firing - nothing happens until law enforcement gets there. The detainment that occurs at the hand of the TSA screener is completely dictated by the detainee, and their willingness to be detained, as the TSA screener has little recourse outside of asking you to follow them to the back room. There may seem to be no difference to you and I, who aren't the types to push that boundary, but for the person intent on causing harm, there's a pretty big divide between the TSA screener and local law enforcement.

It's only "practically accurate" for us in the same vein - that we look at people in uniform as authority, and opt-in to that line of thinking, choosing to see them as equal threats to us and our freedoms, even though they aren't.

As an aside - the TSA proudly reports on their web site each week how many of what kinds of items they've confiscated at the security checkpoint. One of those items is firearms - and 17 were confiscated last week. I'm guessing all, if not, nearly all of these were people with CCWs who for one reason or another were too stupid to remember to check their weapon at the counter as they have to, rather than people who tried to smuggle firearms and got caught. As I said before, there would be little to hold the armed attacker back at the checkpoint, except for perhaps one of the armed TSA agents (1811s I think they're called?) happening to be there at the time.

There's nothing weirder than checking your gun with a ticket counter agent who's never done it. The ones who have seem to have no problem picking it up, checking it out, etc.
I wonder how many people in the plane even know that other passengers have their weapons stored below them with the luggage?
Edited by KlavierBauer, Apr 13 2011, 11:54 AM.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
The police are not a threat to your rights or freedoms. We are sworn to uphold the Constitution of the United States. TSA has sworn no such oath, which is why they have no problem violating peoples' 4th Amendment rights, as a matter of routine.
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
I guess that's a more succinct way of saying what I'm trying to say Frank. :)
Functionally they may all look "similar" to us - but I see more than the proverbial "distinction without a difference." I see a significant difference.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
KlavierBauer
Apr 13 2011, 11:53 AM
Horace:
Again - there is a difference, in more than name.

If I show up to the Boulder County courthouse for a traffic violation, I have to go through a metal detector to get in (no full body searches, as law enforcement requires probable cause to do this). If I pull a weapon at that point and open fire, I will be shot, because the folks manning the metal detectors are Boulder County Sheriff's Deputies, and are law enforcement, and *can* enforce the law, with lethal force.

If I show up at the same metal detector in the airport, and pull my gun and start firing - nothing happens until law enforcement gets there. The detainment that occurs at the hand of the TSA screener is completely dictated by the detainee, and their willingness to be detained, as the TSA screener has little recourse outside of asking you to follow them to the back room. There may seem to be no difference to you and I, who aren't the types to push that boundary, but for the person intent on causing harm, there's a pretty big divide between the TSA screener and local law enforcement.

It's only "practically accurate" for us in the same vein - that we look at people in uniform as authority, and opt-in to that line of thinking, choosing to see them as equal threats to us and our freedoms, even though they aren't.

As an aside - the TSA proudly reports on their web site each week how many of what kinds of items they've confiscated at the security checkpoint. One of those items is firearms - and 17 were confiscated last week. I'm guessing all, if not, nearly all of these were people with CCWs who for one reason or another were too stupid to remember to check their weapon at the counter as they have to, rather than people who tried to smuggle firearms and got caught. As I said before, there would be little to hold the armed attacker back at the checkpoint, except for perhaps one of the armed TSA agents (1811s I think they're called?) happening to be there at the time.

There's nothing weirder than checking your gun with a ticket counter agent who's never done it. The ones who have seem to have no problem picking it up, checking it out, etc.
I wonder how many people in the plane even know that other passengers have their weapons stored below them with the luggage?
Can you find a cite for the notion that TSA officers may not use any force to detain you? I find that difficult to believe. Don't they carry tasers, or something along those lines?

Are mall security guards also not allowed to use force? Because if that's the case they've all been systematically breaking the law for decades.

Very difficult to swallow this notion that the TSA is bound by law into merely asking you to stay if they want to detain you.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Frank_W
Apr 13 2011, 12:00 PM
The police are not a threat to your rights or freedoms. We are sworn to uphold the Constitution of the United States. TSA has sworn no such oath, which is why they have no problem violating peoples' 4th Amendment rights, as a matter of routine.
http://www.tsa.gov/join/careers/oath_of_office.shtm
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Horace: I'm not saying that the TSA legally can, or can't detain you with force - I don't know the answer to that. It matters little what they *can* do when someone has a gun. My point was simply that if someone gets caught at the checkpoint with a weapon that they meant to smuggle past, and chooses that point to die for their cause, the TSA agents suddenly just become scrambling people avoiding bullets, not law enforcement putting and end to the situation.
They have no oath or duty (that I'm aware of) to risk their own life to save yours, and have no significant equipment in their arsenal to achieve this. And to be clear, I'm speaking of TSA Screeners, not Federal Marshals or others under the purview of the TSA who are armed.

And as far as I know, no - mall security can *not* physically detain you without cause - you can only be detained as they wait for law enforcement to arrive. If you choose not to comply, it's not a good idea, but it's a very different situation than running from law enforcement, as is the security's motivation for catching you.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
I stand corrected, Jon. It seems to me then, that they violate the 4th amendment. What I've seen is not a "reasonable" search, by any means, and people shouldn't have to surrender their right to not be manhandled, just because they've purchased an airline ticket.
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
KlavierBauer
Apr 13 2011, 12:21 PM
Horace: I'm not saying that the TSA legally can, or can't detain you with force - I don't know the answer to that. It matters little what they *can* do when someone has a gun. My point was simply that if someone gets caught at the checkpoint with a weapon that they meant to smuggle past, and chooses that point to die for their cause, the TSA agents suddenly just become scrambling people avoiding bullets, not law enforcement putting and end to the situation.
They have no oath or duty (that I'm aware of) to risk their own life to save yours, and have no significant equipment in their arsenal to achieve this. And to be clear, I'm speaking of TSA Screeners, not Federal Marshals or others under the purview of the TSA who are armed.
Ok, by that definition any police officer not currently carrying a gun isn't law enforcement. (We're sort of going around in circles here.)
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
I'd say that statement fails on two grounds:
1) Most police officers that I've known take their duty pretty seriously armed or not.
2) I'm not making the case that the definition of law enforcement is carrying a weapon, I'm arguing that the difference between the average TSA screener and a law enforcement agent is more than a "distinction without a difference."
So no, I don't think that's the case.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
But those mall cops look so important. Posted Image They even have a speaker horn thingie.
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
I wonder whom the mall cops look down on?
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
jon-nyc
Apr 13 2011, 01:28 PM
I wonder whom the mall cops look down on?


NOOB mall cops . . . Posted Image
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Nope. TSA agents. :lol2:
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Copper
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Shortstop

No kidding. Mall cops regularly have loiterers move along.

No TSA agent has ever done anything this productive.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
For all your mall cop comedy movie needs, I recommend Observe and Report over Paul Blart. :popcorn:
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
jon-nyc
Apr 13 2011, 01:28 PM
I wonder whom the mall cops look down on?
Democrats....
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
:lol2:
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Posted Image
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Posted Image
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
:lol2:
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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