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Seriously??? This is making us safer?
Topic Started: Apr 12 2011, 07:46 AM (1,362 Views)
Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
Klaus
Apr 13 2011, 07:20 AM
John D'Oh
Apr 13 2011, 07:02 AM
The problem isn't whether they pat down kids or not - it's the overly restrictive procedures of everthing they do, allowing no creative thought from their employees.
Well, I am usually very much for creativity, but in this context "creativity" boils down to what security engineers call security by obscurity: Rather than having a fixed set of rules that is applied consistently, the procedure depends on various ad hoc factors such as the mood or intelligence of the TSA people.
Any security system that used profiling would be subject to these same criticisms, but it's known that profiling works very well.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
Agreed, Horace.
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Horace
Apr 13 2011, 07:47 AM
Any security system that used profiling would be subject to these same criticisms, but it's known that profiling works very well.
Orly? I don't think so. It only works in the short-term. Once the profile becomes known people will easily bypass it.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Frank_W
Apr 13 2011, 07:34 AM
We're doomed. The TSA agents I've seen, by and large, are right next to being complete, slobbering morons. *shaking my head...* They really scraped the bottom of the barrel to find these goons.
Frank,

You're a smart, thoughtful guy with lots of experience in law enforcement, lots of experience fighting the bad guys in different ways, shapes, and forms. Some one like you would undoubtedly do a great job protecting American air travel's safety.

Suppose I want the TSA to attract people like you to be TSA agents ...

What kind of compensation packages would attract you to apply?

(If you'd also like to stipulate working conditions in addition to just pay and benefits, feel free. Just trying to see what it would take to attract people of your caliber to become TSA agents.)
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
I wouldn't work for TSA. They are not law enforcement, and there's nothing that could entice me to work for them, unless they totally scrapped the program and started fresh with an actual academy and a very stringent set of standards. In other words, I will never, would never, work for TSA.
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
Klaus
Apr 13 2011, 08:04 AM
Horace
Apr 13 2011, 07:47 AM
Any security system that used profiling would be subject to these same criticisms, but it's known that profiling works very well.
Orly? I don't think so.
From what I've gathered, Israeli airlines has a perfect safety record, and any pat-downs they do are based solely on profiling.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Copper
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Shortstop

Well none of them grew up dreaming of the job, unless of course they grew in Germany in the 30's.

But now we have the opportunity to breed a whole new generation of TSA elite.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Copper
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Shortstop
Horace
Apr 13 2011, 08:34 AM

From what I've gathered, Israeli airlines has a perfect safety record, and any pat-downs they do are based solely on profiling.

Well the one time TSA was challenged the system worked.

So the TSA has a perfect safety record too.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Frank hit on the most important point here - TSA isn't law enforcement - people don't seem to get that.

Klaus: Profiling does work, and it's proven every day by law enforcement around the world. Profiles aren't static either, so the principles that guide profiling don't only work short-term.
Certain things are outside of people's control, and profiling can take advantage of the sympathetic nervous system to help find these traits - it's not just about picking out olive skinned guys with thick beards from the crowd.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
The TSA has been tested numerous times, and testers have been able to go through with simulated explosives, a gun, various cutting implements through various airport security check-points.
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
Frank_W
Apr 13 2011, 09:17 AM
The TSA has been tested numerous times, and testers have been able to go through with simulated explosives, a gun, various cutting implements through various airport security check-points.
yes but none of those simulated terrorists were 6 year old girls. Think how embarrassing for this country it would be to be brought down by a 6 year old girl? I'd say our TSA priorities are right where they need to be.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
Heh.... In a sense, yes. :lol:
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Frank_W
Apr 13 2011, 08:11 AM
I wouldn't work for TSA. They are not law enforcement, and there's nothing that could entice me to work for them, unless they totally scrapped the program and started fresh with an actual academy and a very stringent set of standards. In other words, I will never, would never, work for TSA.
Would it be fair, then, to say that it's not that the TSA has been hiring the wrong people for the jobs, but that they designed the jobs wrong? :unsure:
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
KlavierBauer
Apr 13 2011, 09:09 AM
Frank hit on the most important point here - TSA isn't law enforcement - people don't seem to get that.
What is it, then?
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
Axtremus
Apr 13 2011, 09:54 AM
KlavierBauer
Apr 13 2011, 09:09 AM
Frank hit on the most important point here - TSA isn't law enforcement - people don't seem to get that.
What is it, then?
Anybody with the power to enforce laws is law enforcement as far as I'm concerned.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Which laws specifically are they enforcing, and to whom are they employed?
If they are enforcing legitimate laws, why do they not need probable cause to search?

It is clear they aren't an arm of law enforcement, they are cheap security for a government administration/agency.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
They don't and can't enforce laws. If they have a problem, they call for the airport police. It's that simple. They are NOT law enforcement. They are on par with mall security guards/rent-a-cops. They are not sworn deputies, in any way, fashion, or form.
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
KlavierBauer
Apr 13 2011, 10:09 AM
Which laws specifically are they enforcing, and to whom are they employed?
If they are enforcing legitimate laws, why do they not need probable cause to search?

It is clear they aren't an arm of law enforcement, they are cheap security for a government administration/agency.
But in what tangible way is that not a distinction without a difference? What would police officers be able to do in a screening line at the airport that TSA officials are not allowed to do?
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Shoot you.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
A mall-cop may detain a person until law enforcement arrives. This is all the TSA can really do, as well. They cannot make arrests, cannot carry firearms, and are pretty much looked upon with disdain by law enforcement personnel, just as mall cops are. They aren't even trained as well as civilian security guards.
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
But that seems like a distinction without a difference. They don't need to do anything but detain you in order for you to be subject to full law enforcement.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
If you say so, Horace. I'm not going to argue this. :rolleyes:
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
I'm not saying it's not an accurate point that TSA is not law enforcement, Frank. I'm only saying it's not an important point from the perspective of airline travelers.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Copper
Apr 13 2011, 08:39 AM
Horace
Apr 13 2011, 08:34 AM

From what I've gathered, Israeli airlines has a perfect safety record, and any pat-downs they do are based solely on profiling.

Well the one time TSA was challenged the system worked.

So the TSA has a perfect safety record too.
In fact many other countries that do not use profiling have a perfect safety record as well, so this doesn't show anything.

I don't mind the "discrimination" issue of profiling at all; this part is fine with me. I am just not convinced that it is effective. Profiling is a coarse-grained heuristic, hence you'll at best increase the success rates compared to random sampling, but you'll never get any guarantees whatsoever. I think it is a bad idea if terrorists can reason along the lines of "send 10 guys, on average 4 of them will get through" or "use a cute baby to get the illegal stuff through the screening".
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
The ideal terrorist would be the President of the United States, except for the fact that he has his own airliner. That would totally screw up the profiling. Maybe they could recruit a VPOTUS - let's face it, some of those guys would do almost anything to get their face on TV.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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