| Welcome to The New Coffee Room. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Fla. pastor denies responsibility for Afghan killings | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 2 2011, 05:57 AM (861 Views) | |
| Copper | Apr 2 2011, 05:57 AM Post #1 |
|
Shortstop
|
Somone had to start this thread. I assume we all agree on this issue. http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2011-04-03-quran_burning_pastor_02_ST_N.htm?csp=34news
|
|
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy | |
![]() |
|
| Mikhailoh | Apr 2 2011, 06:13 AM Post #2 |
|
If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
|
Why is it that we seem to accept the barbarism that is in Islam today as a given? Jones is an abhorrent cretin, certainly. But there is no proportionality, moral or otherwise, between these events. How interesting that this took place in Mazar e sharif, site of the massacre of 8000 Hazara civilians by the Taliban. They slaughtered 8000 yet we are still asked to believe that the radicals are few. |
|
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
![]() |
|
| shoe | Apr 2 2011, 06:28 AM Post #3 |
|
Member
|
Islam is a violent religion. They don't need much encouragement before they resort to extreme violence.
|
![]() |
|
| Dewey | Apr 2 2011, 06:56 AM Post #4 |
![]()
HOLY CARP!!!
|
The Islamists who practice The Religion of How Dare You don't need Jones as an excuse to act like the violent thugs that they are. Anyone who would blame Jones for their underlying hatred is missing an important point and incorrectly - and dangerously - assessing where the real problem lies. Islamist : Muslim as Terry Jones : Christian. Both of the former are an embarrassment to, and an inaccurate picture of, the latter. Jones is an ignorant, clueless bigot who doesn't understand the actual teachings of his own professed faith. Ditto the Islamists. But Jones hasn't gone out into the streets killing innocent Muslims out of any perceived slight. |
|
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
![]() |
|
| George K | Apr 2 2011, 07:15 AM Post #5 |
|
Finally
|
.
Edited by George K, Apr 2 2011, 07:15 AM.
|
|
A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
![]() |
|
| Renauda | Apr 2 2011, 08:04 AM Post #6 |
![]()
HOLY CARP!!!
|
No, he hasn't because in the country he lives the rule of secular law determines that such actions are wholly unacceptable. In Muslim states like Afghanistan there is no secular law to temper the irrational passions of religious fanaticism among the masses. I have no doubt whatsoever that if religion were not separated from the rule of law in Western nations the same insane bloodletting would occur again today as it did five hundred years ago in Europe. The bigotry of Pastor Jones is really not all that far removed from the bigotry that produced the St. Batholomew's Day massacre in the streets of Paris in 1572. |
![]() |
|
| Copper | Apr 2 2011, 08:11 AM Post #7 |
|
Shortstop
|
Nice bank shot. Play the American off the 439 years old Christians in the corner pocket and the muslim is once again blameless. Those muslims should be upset that those 439 years old Christians made them do this. |
|
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy | |
![]() |
|
| Renauda | Apr 2 2011, 08:16 AM Post #8 |
![]()
HOLY CARP!!!
|
Thank you, Coprolite. However for accuracy you ought to have written; "Play the modern day Christian bigot off the 439 years old Christian fanatics in the corner pocket and the present day muslim fanatic is exposed as a relic of our own past. Needless to say that I still think you come across as a moron. Edited by Renauda, Apr 2 2011, 08:35 AM.
|
![]() |
|
| Copper | Apr 2 2011, 08:50 AM Post #9 |
|
Shortstop
|
Imagine how I would come across if I excused a muslim thug because he felt sad about some atrocity from 439 years ago. Oh, the poor dear. |
|
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy | |
![]() |
|
| Dewey | Apr 2 2011, 08:51 AM Post #10 |
![]()
HOLY CARP!!!
|
I agree with you, but only to a point. There is significant removal from the general Christian understanding about bloodletting over religious disagreements today, versus in 1572 - and that theolgoical/ideological shift hasn't come about due to the existence of secular governments. Further, I don't see any evidence that secular governments per se are any less capable of, or likely to engage in, ruthless and senseless killing for any number of reasons. I agree with you that violent fanatacism is equally dangerous regardless of the ideology it follows or the God that it allegedly worships, and I agree that a separation between secular and religious authority is a very good thing - but history has shown that secularism for its own sake isn't a solution to the deeper underlying problem that human beings are just flawed goods, regardless. |
|
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
![]() |
|
| Renauda | Apr 2 2011, 12:26 PM Post #11 |
![]()
HOLY CARP!!!
|
Point taken. I wasn't thinking in terms of theological/ideological shift. Instead underlying my thought was that we can look back at our history and see that the direct influence of clergy upon secular governance in the West has been in a marked decline since the end of Thirty Year's War in 1648. Other than a few notable exceptions, the political clergyman a la Cardinal Richelieu is a thing of the past. One of the reasons for its gradual disappearance has been the rise of the middle class and the very liberalism that gave birth to the form of open democratic governance that is characteristic of Western democracy.
For the record, there is no evidence. No question, the secular fanaticism of the French Revolution or 20th century totalitarianism is as bloodthirsty as it gets. I was only thinking in terms of our democratic governance which does not embrace either secular or religious absolutes. As for human beings being a flawed goods that is moot. I think by now neither one of us care to argue how we are go about measuring human imperfection; the would be no agreement. I simply concede that nothing in the universe is perfect so there is no reason for human beings to be any different. |
![]() |
|
| Klaus | Apr 2 2011, 12:47 PM Post #12 |
![]()
HOLY CARP!!!
|
Jones is an idiot, but given this reaction I am tempted to burn a few Qurans myself. In fact, even though it is stupid, maybe everybody in the western world should do so on a regular basis, just to teach the radical muslims a lesson. |
| Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman | |
![]() |
|
| Renauda | Apr 2 2011, 01:04 PM Post #13 |
![]()
HOLY CARP!!!
|
I believe that it will take more than burning few Qurans to teach them a lesson. Turning a few mosques into rubble and hanging a few imams like Napoleon did in Cairo might however get their attention long enough for them to listen. |
![]() |
|
| kluurs | Apr 2 2011, 01:33 PM Post #14 |
![]()
Fulla-Carp
|
Not mitigating the madness of the people who did the killing - but Jones was told that if he did x, people would be killed. He did x - and people were killed. He knew it would happen. He chose to make it happen. |
![]() |
|
| John D'Oh | Apr 2 2011, 01:40 PM Post #15 |
|
MAMIL
|
Bottom line: They're barbarians, and he's a piece of sh!t who believes that making his point is more important than people's lives. They should give him 40 hours of community service, to be served in downtown Kabul. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
![]() |
|
| Mikhailoh | Apr 2 2011, 02:29 PM Post #16 |
|
If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
|
Amen, brother. |
|
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
![]() |
|
| Horace | Apr 2 2011, 03:37 PM Post #17 |
|
HOLY CARP!!!
|
This is a pretty interesting situation I think. We all know that lone morons can act moronically - generally, unless they're way outside the bounds of propriety (like assassinating a public figure, that sort of thing), it doesn't make news and it definitely doesn't make international news. So apparently we have a situation here where a lone moron can do something moronic but basically meaningless, like burning a book or three, and it causes an international stir. So, we know that it's not just the moron doing moronic things. We know we can handle that. There must be something else there. There must be something really big there. Anybody who's blaming the moron here is clearly missing the bigger picture. And in this case, the moron knows exactly what he's doing. It's the smart play. Grats to him for being clever. He's just turning on the light. |
| As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good? | |
![]() |
|
| Copper | Apr 2 2011, 03:54 PM Post #18 |
|
Shortstop
|
Are you sure you want to discuss this in a public forum? |
|
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy | |
![]() |
|
| Larry | Apr 2 2011, 03:56 PM Post #19 |
![]()
Mmmmmmm, pie!
|
I think it should be broadcast throughout the islam crowd that every time one of them kills someone, every time any one of them attacks someone, a hundred korans will be burned. Every time there is a terrorist attack, a mosque will be blown up. And if they don't like it, tough sh!t. |
|
Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
![]() |
|
| Horace | Apr 2 2011, 04:19 PM Post #20 |
|
HOLY CARP!!!
|
Only anonymously. Allah may be great, but he still can't figure out my address. Anybody who wants to propagate the cultural meme that this is in any meaningful way the pastor's fault, also propagates a meme that puts great social power into the hands of lone morons. That's the consequence of blaming this on the moron. Good luck with any future that is in the hands of lone morons. What could possibly go wrong. |
| As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good? | |
![]() |
|
| Dewey | Apr 2 2011, 06:29 PM Post #21 |
![]()
HOLY CARP!!!
|
Unfortunately, that wouldn't just affect radical Muslims, it would also offend the Muslims - who consider the very written book itself to be a form of divine incarnation, much the same way a Christian understands the human person Christ to be a divine incarnation - who aren't radical at all. |
|
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
![]() |
|
| Horace | Apr 2 2011, 06:44 PM Post #22 |
|
HOLY CARP!!!
|
that's interesting. If there was a way to mass produce divine incarnations of Christ, and radical muslims destroyed those incarnations because it was convenient and cheap and politically meaningful to do so, how would Christians react? How should they react? |
| As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good? | |
![]() |
|
| Renauda | Apr 2 2011, 07:06 PM Post #23 |
![]()
HOLY CARP!!!
|
Catholics do it during every Mass.
Protestants used to be very good at defiling and destroying the Eucharist. Catholics did not like it one bit. The papacy launched the counter reformation as a result. |
![]() |
|
| Dewey | Apr 2 2011, 07:19 PM Post #24 |
![]()
HOLY CARP!!!
|
That is indeed the question, isn't it. There's an interesting take on that question in the book "Silence," by Shusaku Endo. A very quick, mostly-wikipedia synopsis: Silence is the story of a Jesuit missionary sent to seventeenth century Japan, who endured persecution in the time of Kakure Kiri****an ("Hidden Christians") that followed the defeat of the Shimabara Rebellion. ... Young Portuguese Jesuit, Sebastião Rodrigues is sent to Japan to succor the local Church and investigate reports that his mentor, Fr. Cristóvão Ferreira, has committed apostasy. Fr. Rodrigues and his companion Fr. Francisco Garrpe arrive in Japan in 1638. There they find the local Christian population driven underground. Security officials force suspected Christians to trample on fumie, which are crudely carved images of Christ. Those who refuse are imprisoned and killed by anazuri, being hung upside down over a pit and slowly bled. Those Christians who do step on the image to stay hidden are deeply shamed by their act of apostasy. The novel relates the trials of the Christians and increasing hardship suffered by Rodrigues, as more is learnt about the circumstances of Ferreira's apostasy. Finally, Rodrigues is betrayed by the Judas-like Kichijiro. Rodrigues holds fast to his faith under personal torture. He even refuses to recant when faced with an unbearable moral situation. Groups of Christians are led to him. If he steps on the fumie, he is told, they will be set free. He refuses, and they are taken away and killed before his eyes. "He had come to this country to lay down his life for other men, but instead of that the Japanese were laying down their lives one by one for him." Still, no matter what barbarous methods of torture the shoguns use, Rodrigues will not renounce his faith. As the title intimates, the theme of silence pervades the novel. Over 100 times Rodrigues sees the haunting face of Jesus, a face he loves and serves; but the face never speaks. It remains silent when the priest is chained to a tree to watch the Christians die, silent when he asks for guidance on whether to commit the fumie to set them free, and silent when he prays in his cell at night. In the climax, as Rodrigues looks upon a fumie, Christ breaks his silence: "Yet the face was different from that on which the priest had gazed so often in Portugal, in Rome, in Goa and in Macau. It was not Christ whose face was filled with majesty and glory; neither was it a face made beautiful by endurance to pain; nor was it a face with strength of a will that has repelled temptation. The face of the man who then lay at his feet [in the fumie] was sunken and utterly exhausted…The sorrow it had gazed up at him as the eyes spoke appealingly: 'Trample! Trample! It is to be trampled on by you that I am here.'" |
|
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
![]() |
|
| Renauda | Apr 3 2011, 08:17 AM Post #25 |
![]()
HOLY CARP!!!
|
Does that mean that like me you're also soft on Islamic lunacy? |
![]() |
|
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · The New Coffee Room · Next Topic » |












6:27 AM Jul 11