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Where high taxes and socialism lead to low unemployment; and budget surplus
Topic Started: Jan 21 2011, 12:25 PM (438 Views)
Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Article: Norway - start-ups say "ja" to socialism

Close to 50% "federal tax",
30%+ "payroll tax",
25% "sales tax"

Unemployment rate: 3.5%

Norway's sovereign debt is ranked as the safest in the world (as of 4Q 2010; the US ranked 5th).

Norway also has a budget surplus that is close to 10% of its GDP.

Oh, yeah ... government healthcare, too.

Go figure! :blink:
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Copper
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Shortstop

Oil.

Drill baby drill!
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Norway is not a very good example since they drown in oil.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
Exactly.

It only sort of works in very small populations anyway. And even then it's unethical.
___.___
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o 0
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
No ... oil is not it.

Norway's taxes are not higher than the most heavily taxed areas in the US. My thesis in the subject line is wrong.

See chart below, where I compiled the top ten countries whose sovereign debts are considered "safest" in terms of credit risk, gathered their unemployment rate and tax rates, and compared all those to the US.

Posted Image

For the chart above, I count only the highest marginal tax rate, and where taxes and collected at multiple levels (e.g., federal + state/province + local), I summed the highest rates from each level. The same is done for corporate taxes, personal taxes (income+payroll), and sales taxes.

Sources I used:
Country credit risk ranking: http://www.euromoney.com/Article/2675660/Country-risk-Full-results.html
Tax rates: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world
Unemployment rates:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_unemployment_rate

On paper, at the high end, we have ridiculously high corporate tax rates, moderate personal tax rates (unless you live in a state or locality that levies high personal income taxes, like NYC), low sales tax (unless you live in a state or locality that levies high sales taxes, like NYC). All that taxes, and we still don't get universal healthcare (not for younger folks not yet qualified for Medicare), and we still have to pay for college ourselves. :veryangry:
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Copper
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Shortstop

Ask not what your country can do for you.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Red Rice
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Axtremus
Jan 21 2011, 03:10 PM
No ... oil is not it.

Of course it is.
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
So, if the thesis in the subject line is wrong, what is your thesis, then, Ax?
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
I think the top tax rates do not say all that much.

For instance, since I lived in Denmark for some time, I can tell you a bit more about taxation in these countries.

You reach these top tax rates very quickly, there. A "normal" worker (say, a painter or bricklayer) already pays about 50% tax. And there are several very significant other taxes (different from income and VAT). For instance, in both Norway and Denmark you pay about 200% tax on cars, which means that a car costs more than three times what you pay in the US. In Denmark, if you own a house, you have to pay 1-2% of the current value of your house every year in taxes. Just as in the rest of Europe, you pay more than 100% tax on gas. And so forth. Hence, the numbers you gave do not give the full story.

Also, in some of these countries, the social welfare system is paid from taxes (e.g. in Norway and Denmark), whereas in other countries they are paid by separate insurance fees that do not count as taxes (e.g. in Germany), which makes a comparison based on tax rates even more difficult.

All this said, I have also sometimes wondered how the US manages to spend so much money without having to pay social insurances etc. My answer to this is threefold: First, I think the military budget swamps huge amounts of tax money compared to these other countries. Second, I have the impression that the public system in the US is in general rather inefficient compared to many other countries in your list. Third, the health system in the US seems to be particularly inefficient, since Americans pay much more for their health than most other "first world" countries without a visible difference in quality.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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Copper
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Shortstop
Red Rice
Jan 21 2011, 10:08 PM
Axtremus
Jan 21 2011, 03:10 PM
No ... oil is not it.

Of course it is.

Posted Image
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
I knew someone whose mother was Norwegian, and had left the country in the 50's to go and live in Scotland. She said that the transformation of the country from a small country with no discernible economy on a global scale to the modern oil producer was unbelievable. For Norway, it's all about the oil.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
What I find fascinating about Norway's oil is how differently they deal with it compared to Saudi Arabia and other oil countries. There aren't oil billionaires driving Rolls Royce and spending tons of money for luxury. Rather, they save almost all of the money for later. The value of the "Government Pension Fund of Norway" is >500 B$ by now, which means that they have saved more than $100K per capita!
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Klaus
Jan 22 2011, 07:03 AM
What I find fascinating about Norway's oil is how differently they deal with it compared to Saudi Arabia and other oil countries. There aren't oil billionaires driving Rolls Royce and spending tons of money for luxury.
Maybe they have been infected by their Scottish friends across the water, who's idea of a major extravagance is an extra large serving of tatties and neeps.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
It isn't a fair comparison. Norway has a huge advantage - it was ruled for a long time by the Swedes. :whome:
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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1hp
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Fulla-Carp

The same Swedes who let the Nazis freely march through their country to occupy Norway. Having lived in Norway for a while, I've heard all the stories about the Swedes, and not many of them are good.
There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those that understand binary and................
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Colonials are never grateful.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
jon-nyc
Jan 22 2011, 08:26 PM
Colonials are never grateful.
I've noticed.

Cup of tea, anyone?
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
1hp
Jan 22 2011, 10:57 AM
I've heard all the stories about the Swedes, and not many of them are good.
To me, Sweden means two things - Bjorn Borg, and Abba.

As you say, none of them are good.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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