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Should US women serve on front lines?
Topic Started: Jan 15 2011, 11:27 PM (1,560 Views)
kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
I say yes.
Agree?

Equality!!!!
Or are women special?

http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/01/15/military.women/index.html?hpt=T1
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
It's not about equality nor about opportunity for advancement. It should not be, anyway. It's about combat effectiveness, cohesion and the safety of all in the unit.

If, and only if, women are truly equal in that respect, sure. But I have doubts.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
As a matter of probability, there are bound to be some women who are more "effective" than some men in combat. Once your assembly of such women achieves critical mass, it would be (by definition) suboptimal to not replace the less effective men with these more effective women on front lines.
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apple
one of the angels
I've known some physically awesome women.. perhaps larger and stronger than some of the men physically and emotionally fit for combat.

it's ok with me if they want to and can fight. It would be stupid to have an inadequate person fill a job spot just because of gender equality.
it behooves me to behold
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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
apple
Jan 16 2011, 05:03 AM
I've known some physically awesome women
That doesn't matter much anyway. Twelve-year olds with AK-47s are lethally effective. Discipline, the proper mindset, and proficiency with a rifle count for much more on the modern battlefield than physical size or strength.
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Nope.

Genrally speaking, they physically don't have what it takes, at least for the infantry. Right now, I'm in the middle of the The Old Breed, which is probably the best enlisted man's account of the battle for Okinawa. Read that and get back to me about women in combat.

You might could make a case for pilots or tankers, I guess...
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Genrally speaking, fighting the last war ain't that brilliant an idea, much less fighting the last war four wars ago.
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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
Jolly
Jan 16 2011, 05:46 AM
Nope.

Genrally speaking, they physically don't have what it takes, at least for the infantry. Right now, I'm in the middle of the The Old Breed, which is probably the best enlisted man's account of the battle for Okinawa. Read that and get back to me about women in combat.

You might could make a case for pilots or tankers, I guess...
I've read "With the Old Breed". A classic, but it describes a very different kind of war than what the US is engaged in now. We shouldn't make the mistake of trying to fight the last war. Soldiers today need to be faster, smarter, and more communicative. Physical strength matters less as technology advances and the conditions of battle change. Vietnam was an object lesson in this. Or put another way, the average Spartan was far more formidable physically than the average 19th-century European soldier, but you couldn't fight Waterloo with hoplites.

Since we're recommending books, I recommend "A Long Way Gone" for a more up-to-date assessment about the type of conflicts and warriors America faces today.

edit: I see Ax made the same point about fighting the last war. It's a mistake that we seem to keep making.
Edited by Red Rice, Jan 16 2011, 06:07 AM.
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Red Rice
Jan 16 2011, 06:05 AM
Jolly
Jan 16 2011, 05:46 AM
Nope.

Genrally speaking, they physically don't have what it takes, at least for the infantry. Right now, I'm in the middle of the The Old Breed, which is probably the best enlisted man's account of the battle for Okinawa. Read that and get back to me about women in combat.

You might could make a case for pilots or tankers, I guess...
I've read "With the Old Breed". A classic, but it describes a very different kind of war than what the US is engaged in now. We shouldn't make the mistake of trying to fight the last war. Soldiers today need to be faster, smarter, and more communicative. Physical strength matters less as technology advances and the conditions of battle change. Vietnam was an object lesson in this. Or put another way, the average Spartan was far more formidable physically than the average 19th-century European soldier, but you couldn't fight Waterloo with hoplites.

Since we're recommending books, I recommend "A Long Way Gone" for a more up-to-date assessment about the type of conflicts and warriors America faces today.

edit: I see Ax made the same point about fighting the last war. It's a mistake that we seem to keep making.
Technology is fine, but if it won wars, we'd no longer have infantry. You win wars with boots on the ground. And if you think the day of technology is supreme, ask a few of the grunts about all that technology during the battle of Fallujah.

Yeah, we had a technological edge in that battle, but it still came down to house-to-house entry, artillery and the use of armor where applicable.

Technology is not always the answer. There is a reason why they still teach Alexander's campaigns at West Point and the Somme.

And...if technology is not the answer, what do we have? We have the individual soldier's weapon, his courage and his fighting ability. Women have courage, they can handle most of the weapons, but generally speaking, they ain't gonna hump a full load of ammo and rations like the 185 pound guy next to them. Don't make men die to satisfy somebody's idea of equality.

The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
Firstly, no one is saying technology replaces infantry, or makes infantry irrelevant. Indeed, the argument is about expanding the infantry by letting women serve. My point was that technology makes physical strength and size less important. This has been true since the invention of the effective projectile weapons.

Secondly, the issue to me is not of equality. It is about maximizing the resources available to us to make our armed forces more effective. I take a pragmatist's view of this. If the introduction of women into front-line units damages morale, cohesion, or battle effectiveness, then of course they shouldn't serve. But don't automatically disqualify them on the basis of strength or size. As the past 40 years have shown us, the 185 pound guy still gets his head blown off by a round from an AK-47 whether a fully grown male, a teenage female Vietnamese sniper or a 12-year old boy hopped up on qat fires it.
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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Copper
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Shortstop

Women <> Men

Obviously.

The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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VPG
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Pisa-Carp
Call me an old fuddy duddy if you like, but Larry's origional question should be left to our people that run our wars to answer. We train them to make those tough decisions.
I'M NOT YELLING.........I'M ITALIAN...........THAT'S HOW WE TALK!


"People say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look."
Ronald Reagan, Inaugural, 1971

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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Red Rice
Jan 16 2011, 07:31 AM
Firstly, no one is saying technology replaces infantry, or makes infantry irrelevant. Indeed, the argument is about expanding the infantry by letting women serve. My point was that technology makes physical strength and size less important. This has been true since the invention of the effective projectile weapons.

Secondly, the issue to me is not of equality. It is about maximizing the resources available to us to make our armed forces more effective. I take a pragmatist's view of this. If the introduction of women into front-line units damages morale, cohesion, or battle effectiveness, then of course they shouldn't serve. But don't automatically disqualify them on the basis of strength or size. As the past 40 years have shown us, the 185 pound guy still gets his head blown off by a round from an AK-47 whether a fully grown male, a teenage female Vietnamese sniper or a 12-year old boy hopped up on qat fires it.
Technology doesn't hump a field pack.

A soldier does.

The average woman cannot hump a 100 pound pack as far as an average man can. Period.

There are times when infantry (or special forces) are called upon to do that and many other physically demanding mission efforts. Witness the chase for bin Laden through Tora Bora.

I don't want a woman jeopardizing some young man's life simply to prove a point about equality.

Secondly, if you want to maximize resources, re-institute the draft, if that amount of resources are needed.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
If this passes I'm sure women will be reassigned when no longer able to meet physical requirements X, Y and Z when 8 months pregnant.
But how about 8 weeks pregnant?
I wonder if the physical and psychological stress of combat affects a fetus.
They used to not worry about pregnant women smoking and drinking either - until they did.

Plus while I applaud treating both genders equally, does anyone have and ethical/moral concerns about putting a fetus in harms way?
Clearly the adult woman can choose to be there or not, but the fetus can't.

Besides concerns related to pregnancy what about that time of the month?
Obviously I don't have personal experience with girlfriends or a female spouse.
Are they any physical or mental factors related to menstruation that would affect ability to perform such duties?
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
kenny
Jan 16 2011, 12:16 PM
If this passes I'm sure women will be reassigned when no longer able to meet physical requirements X, Y and Z when 8 months pregnant.
But how about 8 weeks pregnant?
I wonder if the physical and psychological stress of combat affects a fetus.
They used to not worry about pregnant women smoking and drinking either - till till they did.

Plus while I applaud treating both genders equally, does anyone have and ethical/moral concerns about putting a fetus in harms way?
Clearly the adult woman can choose to be there or not, but the fetus can't.

Besides concerns related to pregnancy what about that time of the month?

I'm ignorant on this subject because, being gay, I don't have personal experience with a girlfriends or a female spouse.
Are they any physical or mental factors related to menstruation that would affect ability to perform such duties?
What about the "Love Boat"?

And those sailors weren't frontline troops...look at the hoo-rah that caused...
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
Mikhailoh
Jan 16 2011, 03:56 AM
It's not about equality nor about opportunity for advancement. It should not be, anyway. It's about combat effectiveness, cohesion and the safety of all in the unit.

If, and only if, women are truly equal in that respect, sure. But I have doubts.
Individuals too weak or otherwise unqualified for the job should be disqualified, male or female.
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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
Jolly
Jan 16 2011, 12:09 PM
Technology doesn't hump a field pack.

A soldier does.

The average woman cannot hump a 100 pound pack as far as an average man can. Period.

There are times when infantry (or special forces) are called upon to do that and many other physically demanding mission efforts. Witness the chase for bin Laden through Tora Bora.

I don't want a woman jeopardizing some young man's life simply to prove a point about equality.

Okay, let's say a young woman can do the following:

49 push-ups in 2 min.
59 sit-ups in 2 min.
6 pull-ups
2-mile run in 15 min. 12 sec.
5-mile run in 40 min.
16-mile hike with 65 lb. pack in 5 hrs. 20 min.
15-meter swim with gear

These are the minimum PFT requirements for Ranger school, and there are lots of women who can meet them.

Will you let her serve in a front-line infantry unit?
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
I dunno. Nice rack?
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
Mikhailoh
Jan 16 2011, 05:11 PM
I dunno. Nice rack?
This is why China's PLA will kick our @sses.

Posted Image
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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George K
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Finally
How about looking at a damaged A-10: http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Stories1/001-100/0016_A-10-battle-damage/story0016.htm

"Capt. Kim Campbell, deployed from the 75th Fighter Squadron at Pope Air Force Base, N.C., and her flight leader had just finished supporting ground troops and were on their way out of the area when her aircraft was hit with enemy fire."
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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sue
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HOLY CARP!!!
kenny
Jan 16 2011, 12:16 PM
Are they any physical or mental factors related to menstruation that would affect ability to perform such duties?
WHAT ARE YOU IMPLYING? WE'RE JUST FINE, THANK YOU VERY MUCH. JUST DON'T DO SOMETHING TO PISS US OFF OR ASK IF WE'RE FEELING OK BECAUSE WE LOOK ALL BLOATED AND CRAMPY. DON'T DO THAT. ESPECIALLY IF WE HAVE GUNS.
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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
:lol2:
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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Mikhailoh
Member Avatar
If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Well, that's rather it in a nutshell, isn't it? :lol2:
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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George K
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Finally
Sue wins best post of the day.

Really.

:leaving:
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Jolly
Member Avatar
Geaux Tigers!
Red Rice
Jan 16 2011, 05:05 PM
Jolly
Jan 16 2011, 12:09 PM
Technology doesn't hump a field pack.

A soldier does.

The average woman cannot hump a 100 pound pack as far as an average man can. Period.

There are times when infantry (or special forces) are called upon to do that and many other physically demanding mission efforts. Witness the chase for bin Laden through Tora Bora.

I don't want a woman jeopardizing some young man's life simply to prove a point about equality.

Okay, let's say a young woman can do the following:

49 push-ups in 2 min.
59 sit-ups in 2 min.
6 pull-ups
2-mile run in 15 min. 12 sec.
5-mile run in 40 min.
16-mile hike with 65 lb. pack in 5 hrs. 20 min.
15-meter swim with gear

These are the minimum PFT requirements for Ranger school, and there are lots of women who can meet them.

Will you let her serve in a front-line infantry unit?
Are you willing to deal with what happens to a female POW?

The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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