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For those with short memories
Topic Started: Jan 9 2011, 11:25 AM (746 Views)
1hp
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Fulla-Carp

Doesn't really belong in the other thread.

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those that understand binary and................
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jon-nyc
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I'm not sure what your point is - at first I thought you were addressing this to all those people who asserted that extreme rhetoric is the exclusive domain of the right. Then I remembered that precisely zero people have made that point.

Do you have a point of view as to whether extreme rhetoric can influence the behaviour of the less-than-stable among us?

More importantly for this forum, do you have a point of view as to whether the previous question can be discussed?
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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jon-nyc
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Mik, please. Give HP a chance to explain himself first.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
OK. Here's a book to read boy-nyc.

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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
It's pretty obvious what the point was - if hateful rhetoric is what motivated this man, then the vast majority of the hateful rhetoric that influenced him came from your side of things.

Unless you can show us a similar list of photos from the right.... so far all your side has come up with and then constructed their argument around is that Palin used a gunsight as a marker on a list. Hardly rises to the level of what we see in the photos above, don't you think?
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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jon-nyc
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Larry
Jan 9 2011, 12:20 PM
It's pretty obvious what the point was - if hateful rhetoric is what motivated this man, then the vast majority of the hateful rhetoric that influenced him came from your side of things.
I'd be inclined to give HP a bit more credit than that, but lets see what he has to say.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Man, that one guy gets around a lot.
Does he go to every rally and misspell signs?
I thought only idiots on the right did that.

I think the only point is proves is that idiots are everywhere. I don't think the "vast majority" of idiocy comes from any one direction - just lots of idiocy to go around is all.

"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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jon-nyc
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KlavierBauer
Jan 9 2011, 01:44 PM
I think the only point is proves is that idiots are everywhere.
While Larry was giving him too little credit, you seem to be giving him too much. He's not showing it from everywhere, he's only showing it on the left.


But again, I'll wait to hear what he has to say.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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1hp
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Fulla-Carp
I posted it because there seems to be a few who believe hate speech is right wing only. I posted it Jon, because the second post you displayed was a a quick suggestion that it's Sarah Palin's fault. It doesn't really matter what you explain afterwards - the post is there - Sarah Palin with the suggestion "Was it politically motivated". Why would you immediately post that other than to place the suggestion out there that Sarah Palin is linked to this? I posted it because you posted a link to a CNN article immediately - an article that states in it's opening sentence "A gunman intended to assassinate a U.S. representative when he opened fire outside a Tucson, Arizona, supermarket ", at a time that no one really now's what the motivation was. I posted it because my first thoughts when I heard of the shooting was "those poor people - hopefully no-one is seriously hurt", and not "is this politically motivated".

I then read someone's comments about the comments on WTF, so I went over there and read them for myself (I pretty much never read the WTF). On that website I read:

[I should make the quote read better:]
Nina:
I don't believe that SP wanted anyone to go out and shoot people for political reasons.

pique: nina!!!! those are GUNSIGHTS!!!! what do you mean that wasn't the intention. look at the map. those are GUNSIGHTS!!

this is anarchy.


pianojuggler' post:

Originally posted by Nina:
Perhaps I was wrong to post the SarahPac graphic.

What else could one possibly mean by using crosshairs to indicate one's targets?

I also remember a lot of rhetoric in the last cycle encouraging people to find some "second amendment solutions" to their political challengers.

Hmmmm... what else could they possibly have meant?

[/end o making quotes read better]

I printed it because I'm tired of seeing accusations intended to smear a persons name, with no retraction when they are shown to be wrong. Photos of Bush effigies being hung, with no press coverage or investigation. Can we say the same of Obama? No we can't Photos of US citizens in public holding signs threatening George Bush as the president of the United Stated, with no investigation or press coverage. The same press who takes events such as the supposed spitting on Black congressional leaders, when there is no proof that the event ever happened.

Perhaps you can explain why the first thought of CNN is that this is an assassination attempt when it looks like 20 people were shot. Lincoln - only one killed. Kennedy - only one killed. Reagan attempt - 3 others were hit when the shooter kept missing Reagan. 20 injured in the Gifford attempt with no further information. So we don't know if the shooter had to shoot his way through to Gifford, but seeing as one of the fatalities was a young girl, this is doubtful. We don't know in what sequence people were shot at - was Gifford first, or last, or in the middle. Did he hit each person with one carefully aimed shot, or just random spraying of bullets? Was he channeling Sarah Palin, or trying to impress Hugh Heffner's wife to be. Perhaps he was carrying out Obama's work. Or God's work. Perhaps he just hated women. Or perhaps he was just trying to put his name in the history books. Let the FBI and local police force do their job, and instead start wondering about all the other people hit by the shooter. My best wishes go out to Gifford for a speedy recovery, but my heart goes out to the six families that lost loved ones on Saturday in Tucson.

Edited by 1hp, Jan 9 2011, 02:05 PM.
There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those that understand binary and................
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Jon:
Sorry, I assumed this was in response to the other thread with pictures from the right with "targets" on the map. While I don't think those targets meant anything other than strategic political targets, I have seen plenty of pictures of right-wingers with misspelled signs saying extreme things.
But yes, if you want to just compare the two threads, and not look openly at the whole playing field I'll agree with you - it doesn't prove there is idiocy everywhere - the evidence so far (in just these two threads) indicates that left-wingers assume that targets on a map are secret calls-to-action for extremists, while lefties themselves leave blatant messages calling for assassinations.
I'm not sure what your point is - I was trying to agree that neither thread really shows anything.
Edited by KlavierBauer, Jan 9 2011, 02:03 PM.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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jon-nyc
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1hp
Jan 9 2011, 02:01 PM
I posted it because there seems to be a few who believe hate speech is right wing only.
Can you name one? I mean here, not picking off some random poster from firedoglake. I count zero at TNCR. Hence my initial confusion as to your post.



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I posted it Jon, because the second post you displayed was a a quick suggestion that it's Sarah Palin's fault. It doesn't really matter what you explain afterwards - the post is there - Sarah Palin with the suggestion "Was it politically motivated".


Ummm, ok. But I'm not sure how your post addresses Sarah Palin's involvement or lack thereof in any manner.


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I posted it because you posted a link to a CNN article immediately - an article that states in it's opening sentence "A gunman intended to assassinate a U.S. representative when he opened fire outside a Tucson, Arizona, supermarket ", at a time that no one really now's what the motivation was.


The point blank head shot provides a clue as to intent, does it not? But lets pretend for a second that we desire a higher standard of evidence. How is that communicated by your post?


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I posted it because my first thoughts when I heard of the shooting was "those poor people - hopefully no-one is seriously hurt", and not "is this politically motivated".



Um, ok. But in what way does showing these nutbobs display your initial sympathetic reaction?


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I then read someone's comments about the comments on WTF...


Wrong forum!



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I printed it because I'm tired of seeing accusations intended to smear a persons name, with no retraction when they are shown to be wrong.


Um, ok. I'd be a little curious as to how you feel that such an accusation is redressed by showing these old photos of nutbobs.




In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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jon-nyc
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KlavierBauer
Jan 9 2011, 02:01 PM
Jon:
Sorry, I assumed this was in response to the other thread with pictures from the right with "targets" on the map.
I think in the other thread you'll find more pictures from the left with "targets" on the map. If he felt a need to redress the balance to show that neither side has a monopoly on crazy, he posted the wrong pictures.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Your opposition with my words was that I was characterizing the idiocy as being everywhere - that's specifically what you quoted from what I said.
I don't see how the mention of imbalance in a separate direction addresses my assertion that the idiocy is in all directions. If anything you're agreeing with my point, so I'm not sure why you quoted me to begin with.

"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
In general, I don't get too worked up about signs, or protesters, regardless of their political affiliation, who don't know the difference between "their," and "there."
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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George K
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Finally
Well, this is interesting...

In Defense of Inflamed Rhetoric

The awesome stupidity of the calls to tamp down political speech in the wake of the Giffords shooting.

By Jack Shafer
Posted Sunday, Jan. 9, 2011, at 12:24 PM ET

The attempted assassination of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, D-Ariz., and the killing of six innocents outside a Tucson Safeway has bolstered the ongoing argument that when speaking of things political, we should all avoid using inflammatory rhetoric and violent imagery.

"Shooting Throws Spotlight on State of U.S. Political Rhetoric," reports CNN. "Bloodshed Puts New Focus on Vitriol in Politics," states the New York Times. Keith Olbermann clocked overtime on Saturday to deliver a commentary subtitled "The political rhetoric of the country must be changed to prevent acts of domestic terrorism." The home page of the Washington Post offered this headline to its story about the shooting: "Rampage Casts Grim Light on U.S. Political Discord."

The lead spokesman for the anti-inflammatory movement, however, was Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik, whose jurisdiction includes Tucson. Said Dupnik at a Jan. 8 press conference in answer to questions about the criminal investigation:

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I'd just like to say that when you look at unbalanced people, how they are—how they respond to the vitriol that comes out of certain mouths, about tearing down the government, the anger, the hatred, the bigotry that goes on in this country is getting to be outrageous. And unfortunately, Arizona, I think, has become sort of the capital. We have become the mecca for prejudice and bigotry.


Embedded in Sheriff Dupnik's ad hoc wisdom were several assumptions. First, that strident, anti-government political views can be easily categorized as vitriolic, bigoted, and prejudicial. Second, that those voicing strident political views are guilty of issuing Manchurian Candidate-style instructions to commit murder and mayhem to the "unbalanced." Third, that the Tucson shooter was inspired to kill by political debate or by Sarah Palin's "target" map or other inflammatory outbursts. Fourth, that we should calibrate our political speech in such a manner that we do not awaken the Manchurian candidates among us.

And, fifth, that it's a cop's role to set the proper dimensions of our political debate. Hey, Dupnik, if you've got spare time on your hands, go write somebody a ticket.

Sheriff Dupnik's political sermon came before any conclusive or even circumstantial proof had been offered that the shooter had been incited by anything except the gas music from Jupiter playing inside his head.

For as long as I've been alive, crosshairs and bull's-eyes have been an accepted part of the graphical lexicon when it comes to political debates. Such "inflammatory" words as targeting, attacking, destroying, blasting, crushing, burying, knee-capping, and others have similarly guided political thought and action. Not once have the use of these images or words tempted me or anybody else I know to kill. I've listened to, read—and even written!—vicious attacks on government without reaching for my gun. I've even gotten angry, for goodness' sake, without coming close to assassinating a politician or a judge.

From what I can tell, I'm not an outlier. Only the tiniest handful of people—most of whom are already behind bars, in psychiatric institutions, or on psycho-meds—can be driven to kill by political whispers or shouts. Asking us to forever hold our tongues lest we awake their deeper demons infantilizes and neuters us and makes politicians no safer.

The call by Sheriff Dupnik and others to take our political conversation down a few notches might make sense if anybody had been calling for the assassination in the first place, which they hadn't. And if they had, there are effective laws to prosecute those who move language outside of the metaphorical. I can't be overly critical of the sheriff. After all, he's the one who has spent his career witnessing how threats can turn into violence: gang wars, contract killings, neighborhood rows, domestic disputes, bar arguments, and all the rest.

The great miracle of American politics is that although it can tend toward the cutthroat and thuggish, it is almost devoid of genuine violence outside of a few scuffles and busted lips now and again. With the exception of Saturday's slaughter, I'd wager that in the last 30 years there have been more acts of physical violence in the stands at Philadelphia Eagles home games than in American politics.

Any call to cool "inflammatory" speech is a call to police all speech, and I can't think of anybody in government, politics, business, or the press that I would trust with that power. As Jonathan Rauch wrote brilliantly in Harper's in 1995, "The vocabulary of hate is potentially as rich as your dictionary, and all you do by banning language used by cretins is to let them decide what the rest of us may say." Rauch added, "Trap the racists and anti-Semites, and you lay a trap for me too. Hunt for them with eradication in your mind, and you have brought dissent itself within your sights."

Our spirited political discourse, complete with name-calling, vilification—and, yes, violent imagery—is a good thing. Better that angry people unload their fury in public than let it fester and turn septic in private. The wicked direction the American debate often takes is not a sign of danger but of freedom. And I'll punch out the lights of anybody who tries to take it away from me.
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
Not taking anything away from anyone. It's not about Palin or Obama. It's about the little girl who died, and all the other victims of this senseless tragedy.

It is also about the nutcase that executed these people.

He is to blame 100% for this.
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George K
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Finally
Mark
Jan 9 2011, 03:54 PM
Not taking anything away from anyone. It's not about Palin or Obama. It's about the little girl who died, and all the other victims of this senseless tragedy.

It is also about the nutcase that executed these people.

He is to blame 100% for this.
Yes. And all the hype over accusing this side, or the other, or even asking the question, is out of line.

People are dead because of a crazed lunatic, and the attention to the sideshow cheapens the tragedy.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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jon-nyc
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KlavierBauer
Jan 9 2011, 02:52 PM
Your opposition with my words was that I was characterizing the idiocy as being everywhere - that's specifically what you quoted from what I said.
.

I was not opposed to your words, I simply didn't believe they described HPs point. (As HP later confirmed)
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
OK - I understand now.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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JBryan
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I am the grey one
George K
Jan 9 2011, 03:56 PM
Mark
Jan 9 2011, 03:54 PM
Not taking anything away from anyone. It's not about Palin or Obama. It's about the little girl who died, and all the other victims of this senseless tragedy.

It is also about the nutcase that executed these people.

He is to blame 100% for this.
Yes. And all the hype over accusing this side, or the other, or even asking the question, is out of line.

People are dead because of a crazed lunatic, and the attention to the sideshow cheapens the tragedy.
:uparrow:
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There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


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1hp
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Fulla-Carp

Jon - you can make statements all you want about what relates to what. The facts are - at 12.10 pm (PST according to the times I see on the posts) yesterday you rushed to be the first to post that Giffords was shot. At 12.31 you insinuate that Palin is connected to it - 1 minute after you made the first post. You were the one who brought politics and Palin into a discussion for no reason other than to make a dig at her and the people who like her.


There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those that understand binary and................
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
I agree - I apologize for my part in discussing something purely for discussion's sake, and forgetting what we're really talking about (the "why").
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
1hp
Jan 9 2011, 04:52 PM
Jon - you can make statements all you want about what relates to what. The facts are - at 12.10 pm (PST according to the times I see on the posts) yesterday you rushed to be the first to post that Giffords was shot. At 12.31 you insinuate that Palin is connected to it - 1 minute after you made the first post. You were the one who brought politics and Palin into a discussion for no reason other than to make a dig at her and the people who like her.


Perhaps he was channeling Quirt? ;)
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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jon-nyc
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1hp
Jan 9 2011, 04:52 PM
Jon - you can make statements all you want about what relates to what. The facts are - at 12.10 pm (PST according to the times I see on the posts) yesterday you rushed to be the first to post that Giffords was shot. At 12.31 you insinuate that Palin is connected to it - 1 minute after you made the first post.


Well, one of those is a fact, one of those is your view. But, be that as it may, how does that fact and viewpoint relate to your post of these left wing nutjobs? Or will this get ignored like my previous questions?



Quote:
 
You were the one who brought politics and Palin into a discussion for no reason other than to make a dig at her and the people who like her.


You need to settle on a consistent evidentiary standard. Earlier you gave CNN sh1t for assuming that the head shot at point blank range was an assassination attempt since they didn't know the mind of the killer. Now you're assuming you know my motives based on - oh, I don't know, just some view of me and the world you have.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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