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| Free Trade? Fair Trade??? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 13 2010, 11:55 PM (606 Views) | |
| ivorythumper | Dec 13 2010, 11:55 PM Post #1 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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I haven't studied any of this before, and so am just trying to figure out what the terms of discussion really are... A comparison This guy doesn't think Free Trade works... Any comments from you economists? |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Mikhailoh | Dec 14 2010, 03:18 AM Post #2 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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Very interesting, and worth thinking about. I don't know how we can continue to hold the door wide open while other countries do not. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| Piano*Dad | Dec 14 2010, 03:34 AM Post #3 |
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Bull-Carp
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A group of us in the profession had a long discussion with Ian Fletcher. In fact, I think some of it was in the pages of Huffpo. A lot of it was in private emails flying around. Most of us think he's an idiot who uses big terms and cherry-picked evidence to convince people who have never seriously studied the subject. |
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| Piano*Dad | Dec 14 2010, 03:57 AM Post #4 |
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Bull-Carp
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Here's a little debate between Jagdish Bhagwati, one of the most preeminent trade economists of the last half century, and the political scientist Ngaire Woods. The American Interest: Free Trade vs. Fair Trade Feldman's Fearless Forecast: Bhagwati should win the Nobel Prize in the next few years. Both are regarded as good scholars in their discipline. For you conservatives out there, guess which one is more likely to be associated with left wing activism.
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| brenda | Dec 14 2010, 08:23 AM Post #5 |
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..............
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Good read. I like Mr. Bhagwati's material. Fletcher's 30% tariff might sound appealing at first, but by round two it wouldn't look so good. When reciprocal tariffs, and even quotas, got imposed on US goods, our exporters would be hollering. If Fletcher can't see that, he is an idiot as PD noted. |
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“Weeds are flowers, too, once you get to know them.” ~A.A. Milne | |
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| Moonbat | Dec 14 2010, 09:14 AM Post #6 |
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Pisa-Carp
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Individuals do not have a fixed quantity of "altruistic funds" i.e. there is no reason to believe that mandating fair trade coffee would reduce the amount spent on other altruistic acts (e.g. donating to charity) by an equivalent amount. The answer to that last sentence is the same answer to anyone who says "Why should I bother helping those guys that are vastly less fortunate than me?" and it depends on one's own philosophy. A few possible answers are: Because it helps them much much more than it will hurt us (this is particularly true if you have a society wide policy like obligating fair trade where the cost essentially becomes zero). Because we don't live in a world of equal opportunity and success is not just a function of hard work and ability. I.e. the distribution of success in the world is not fair. Because our own good fortune and their misfortune are not uncorrelated factors. Edited by Moonbat, Dec 14 2010, 09:21 AM.
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| Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem | |
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| KlavierBauer | Dec 14 2010, 09:47 AM Post #7 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Moonbat : Those are all good answers to his question, though I think he's phrased the question improperly. I think his real gripe is with someone telling that he has to spend more on a product than the market-clearing price, out of some moral obligation that he may or may not share. I think in most of these cases the issue comes down to control, and some people are much more sensitive to having it than others. *edit* I haven't read the material, and am only commenting in general about Fair-Trade coffee, because as a coffee snob I am more familiar with that specific idea. Edited by KlavierBauer, Dec 14 2010, 09:49 AM.
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"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
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| ivorythumper | Dec 14 2010, 10:04 AM Post #8 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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I buy my coffee for the flavor -- not to feel good about supporting poor people in third world countries. If some fair trade coffee tastes better than non-fair trade coffee, I'll buy it. If it doesn't I won't. In the end it's really all about typical market forces, not ideology. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Aqua Letifer | Dec 14 2010, 10:08 AM Post #9 |
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ZOOOOOM!
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For coffee, maybe. But not all our purchases are governed in this way. If, say, you are visiting a third world country, and a street vendor comes up to you to peddle his wares, chances are you don't need anything he has and if you do, you'd get it from somewhere else. But maybe you'll buy the guy's crappy bone trinket, even though you don't need or even want it, because hey, it means he has food money for the next couple days. Some people donate to charities; others do this kind of thing instead. I think both are legitimate. ...but that's not to say I support free or fair trade, I don't know enough about the details to say I'd feel good using either. |
| I cite irreconcilable differences. | |
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| Moonbat | Dec 14 2010, 10:17 AM Post #10 |
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Pisa-Carp
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I think you're right but I have a fairly hard time sympathising with the attitude. Through some set of dire circumstances some guy is on the brink of destitution and needs X amount to get medical treatment for his daughter so he's willing to accept an otherwise ridiculously low amount for his house. Why would we fight for the right to exploit this guy? Why would we object if there was some mechanism that meant the guy got a fair price for his house? Surely the only valid argument is that the putative mechanism has some other deleterious consequences in addition to doing a good thing like stopping him being exploited. From what I know (admittedly relatively little) I'm all for making all coffee fair trade coffee. Edited by Moonbat, Dec 14 2010, 10:48 AM.
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| Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem | |
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| Frank_W | Dec 14 2010, 10:24 AM Post #11 |
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Resident Misanthrope
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Here's where I buy my coffee. I like what it does for the environment, and it's damn good coffee. |
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Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
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| John D'Oh | Dec 14 2010, 10:40 AM Post #12 |
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MAMIL
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I feed my cat coffee beans, and then make coffee using the cat litter in her tray. It tastes like sh!t but at least I'm not exploiting poor people, or killing horses to feed the cat. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| Frank_W | Dec 14 2010, 10:41 AM Post #13 |
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Resident Misanthrope
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Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
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| ivorythumper | Dec 14 2010, 10:53 AM Post #14 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Speaking of cat food... |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| KlavierBauer | Dec 14 2010, 10:54 AM Post #15 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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John: That's worth well over $100/lb on the free market. Moonbat: Obviously many disagree on questions of this nature fundamentally. We all agree (I think) that people in destitute situations need care from those around them. I think what divides people is how that is facilitated. I think in principle people don't disagree with the idea of fair-trade coffee (I buy it when it suits me), but I think people are against *having* to buy fair-trade coffee and pay more for it. I don't know which is right - but I think the issue is based more on principle than it is based on the rich guys screwing the poor guys because they simply don't care about them. I would guess that there are lots of people who based on their political persuasion or ideological stances would be considered un-caring, but whom give more per-capita than most on their own accord. I used to have numbers to back this up (several year old study), but can't find it now, so I'll simply say "I would guess that..." |
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"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
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| Piano*Dad | Dec 14 2010, 11:45 AM Post #16 |
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Bull-Carp
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Bing, bing, bing, give that man a cigar. Remember, J.Bhagwati is a man of the left. But he also understands that when governments get involved in deciding which industries' products get to sell at above market clearing prices (with extra profits doled out) the results often aren't pretty, and they're often not what the activists expect. |
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| KlavierBauer | Dec 14 2010, 11:52 AM Post #17 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I feel so honored to have gotten the "bing, bing, bing" from P*D!
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"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
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| John D'Oh | Dec 14 2010, 11:53 AM Post #18 |
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MAMIL
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I think the best way to help poor nations would be to split everything we buy into two and send half to them. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| KlavierBauer | Dec 14 2010, 12:01 PM Post #19 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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John: I agree - but do they get the wholes, or the halves? |
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"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
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| Frank_W | Dec 14 2010, 12:02 PM Post #20 |
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Resident Misanthrope
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They get the holes. We get the haves.
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Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
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| Aqua Letifer | Dec 14 2010, 12:02 PM Post #21 |
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ZOOOOOM!
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We could single-handedly eliminate the starvation issue by shipping over all the dead horses we beat here. |
| I cite irreconcilable differences. | |
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| Frank_W | Dec 14 2010, 12:04 PM Post #22 |
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Resident Misanthrope
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Already tenderized!
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Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
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| KlavierBauer | Dec 14 2010, 12:04 PM Post #23 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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LOL Frank. AL - Brilliant - beyond LOL |
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"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
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| Moonbat | Dec 14 2010, 12:18 PM Post #24 |
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Pisa-Carp
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Isn't it overly generous to interpret 'why should I be forced to pay 50p extra to the coffee guy when I could pay him 2p instead and leave him in abject poverty instead?' as a point about possible unintended consequences to deviation from market values? I don't really understand why people care so much about market prices anyway. Surely the only world in which market clearing prices are the best prices is a world where the agents used in economic models are perfect descriptions of people and where money and quality of life are synonymous. Since neither of those things are true surely it goes without saying that whatever ideal prices are they aren't market prices. Edited by Moonbat, Dec 14 2010, 12:18 PM.
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| Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem | |
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| KlavierBauer | Dec 14 2010, 12:27 PM Post #25 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I think it's dangerous to mix guidelines used to define markets, and subjective moral and ethical considerations. Whether one is rich, or poor, shouldn't necessarily factor into what person a is willing to pay for person b's product. Why not just take a little from everyone who can afford it, and give it to the impoverished, and not make them go through the trouble of producing the coffee? After all, if the goal is altruism we shouldn't be looking for something in return, like a good/service. Again, I'm not opposed to fair-trade coffee. Most (if not all) of the coffee I buy is fair-trade coffee. I like to purchase it, and support the hard workers producing it. I cringe at the idea of only having that option though, for any reason other than market forces (i.e. altruism, or legislated altruism). Both valid concepts (free market, altruism), but in my opinion shouldn't excite each other too much. |
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"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
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11:04 AM Jul 11