| Welcome to The New Coffee Room. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Buddhism | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 8 2010, 08:08 AM (5,157 Views) | |
| kluurs | Dec 9 2010, 10:49 AM Post #151 |
![]()
Fulla-Carp
|
... from wikipedia... Centering prayer is a popular method of contemplative prayer or Christian meditation, placing a strong emphasis on interior silence. Though most authors trace its roots to the contemplative prayer of the Desert Fathers of early Christian monasticism, to the Lectio Divina tradition of Benedictine monasticism, and to works like The Cloud of Unknowing and the writings of St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross, its origins as part of the "Centering Prayer" movement in modern Catholicism and Christianity can be traced to several books published by three Trappist monks of St. Joseph's Abbey in Spencer, Massachusetts in the 1970s: Fr. William Meninger, Fr. M. Basil Pennington and Abbot Thomas Keating.[1] Seeds of what would become known as contemplation were sown early in the Christian era. The first appearance of something approximating contemplative prayer arises in the 4th century writings of the monk St. John Cassian, who wrote of a practice he learned from the Desert Fathers (specifically from Isaac). Cassian's writings remained influential until the medieval era, when monastic practice shifted from a mystical orientation to Scholasticism. Thus it can be plausibly argued that contemplation was (one of) the earliest meditational and/or devotional practice of Christian monasticism, being later supplanted in dominance by the scholastic theologians, with only a minimal interest in contemplation. The Trappist monk and influential writer Thomas Merton was strongly influenced by Buddhist meditation, particularly as found in Zen — he was a lifetime friend of Buddhist meditation master and Vietnamese monk and peace activist Thich Nhat Hanh, and was also an acquaintance of the current Dalai Lama. His theology attempted to unify existentialism with the tenets of the Roman Catholic faith, a unique undertaking at that time — Christian Existentialism began as a feature of modern Protestant theology[2]. As such he was also an advocate of the non-rational meditation of contemplative prayer, which he saw as a direct confrontation of finite and irrational man with his ground of being. Cistercian monk Father Thomas Keating, a founder of Centering Prayer, was abbot all through the 60s and 70s at St. Joseph’s Abbey in Spencer, Massachusetts. This area is thick with religious retreat centers, including the well-known Theravada Buddhist center, Insight Meditation Society. Fr. Keating tells of meeting many young people, some who stumbled on St. Joseph’s by accident, many of them born Catholic, who had turned to Eastern practices for contemplative work. He found many of them had no knowledge of the contemplative traditions within Christianity and set out to present those practices in a more accessible way. The result was the practice now called Centering Prayer.[3] |
![]() |
|
| Frank_W | Dec 9 2010, 10:53 AM Post #152 |
![]()
Resident Misanthrope
|
I wonder what church God would attend. I wonder if God would be all pissed-off about people approaching Him in the "wrong" way... I wonder if God would be a fundamentalist hardliner, or if God, being Love itself as it says in the Bible, would simply go where there was love, rather than the legalistic scripture pounding of the modern "scribes and Pharisees." |
|
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
![]() |
|
| Renauda | Dec 9 2010, 10:59 AM Post #153 |
![]()
HOLY CARP!!!
|
If He were to hang around the TNCR for any amount of time, I am certain He would declare Himself a Christian Scientist. |
![]() |
|
| Frank_W | Dec 9 2010, 11:01 AM Post #154 |
![]()
Resident Misanthrope
|
If He hung around long enough, He'd probably become an agnostic. Talk about having a serious self-esteem crisis!
|
|
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
![]() |
|
| kenny | Dec 9 2010, 11:01 AM Post #155 |
|
HOLY CARP!!!
|
Oh, yours is the right Christianity. Theirs is wrong. I'm sure they believe theirs is right. You know, this all makes me want to rush out to become a Christian, y'all.
|
![]() |
|
| Larry | Dec 9 2010, 11:04 AM Post #156 |
![]()
Mmmmmmm, pie!
|
Here is a Catholic take on "centering prayer": http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9711fea1.asp Many people assume centering prayer is compatible with Catholic tradition, but in fact the techniques of centering prayer are neither Christian nor prayer. They are at the level of human faculties and as such are an operation of man, not of God. The deception and dangers can be grave. Centering prayer differs from Christian prayer in that the intent of the technique is to bring the practitioner to the center of his own being. There he is, supposedly, to experience the presence of the God who indwells him. Christian prayer, on the contrary, centers upon God in a relational way, as someone apart from oneself. The Christian knows a God who is personal, yet who, as Creator, infinitely transcends his creature. God is wholly other than man. It is also crucial to Christian prayer that God engages man’s whole being in response, not just his interior life. In the view of centering prayer, the immanence of God somehow makes the transcendence of God available to human techniques and experience. Centering prayer is essentially a form of self-hypnosis. It makes use of a "mantra," a word repeated over and over to focus the mind while striving by one’s will to go deep within oneself. The effects are a hypnotic-like state: concentration upon one thing, disengagement from other stimuli, a high degree of openness to suggestion, a psychological and physiological condition that externally resembles sleep but in which consciousness is interiorized and the mind subject to suggestion. In order to see clearly that centering prayer departs from Catholic tradition, let us review the differences between Christian spirituality and that of Eastern religions. These differences flow, above all, from their concepts of God, of man, and of their relationship. In light of this contrast, we should be able to see more clearly from which of these centering prayer draws its approach and techniques. In Catholic teaching, all men are creatures, called out of nothingness to know God. All men are also sinners, cut off from God and destined to death. A Christian is one whose life has been reconstituted in Christ. He is no longer in the place and stance of a sinner, that is, apart from God, acting as if he were the ultimate source, measure, and goal of his own behavior. He is in Christ. Henceforth, his life is supposed to originate in Christ and to be directed to God the Father. I say "supposed to" for it is a possibility that must be acted upon. It is not automatic. The grace of baptism must be incarnated in obedience, and, even after baptism, the Christian can choose to conform to Christ or to his fallen nature, that is, to sin. Eastern religions, in contrast, lack revelation of God as a personal Creator who radically transcends his creatures. Though possessing many praiseworthy elements, they nonetheless seek God as if he werepart of the universe, rather than its Creator. This is because they are monistic, seeing all reality as one. Thus, God is a dimension, though hidden, of the same reality of which man is a part. The goal therefore is to peel away the exterior world to get to the spiritual reality beneath it. God is conceived of as an impersonal state of being. In contrast, for Christians, God is the Real, and the whole of the universe exists by God’s free choice; creation is a second, contingent reality—and, in Christian thought, did not need to exist. Moreover, this contingent universe is the result of a God who is vastly more than mere being; he is a loving Father. |
|
Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
![]() |
|
| John D'Oh | Dec 9 2010, 11:04 AM Post #157 |
|
MAMIL
|
It strikes me that being intolerant of others failings and mis-steps would not be the act of an all-powerful and loving entity, but more appropriate behaviour for an autocratic despot. Then again, what do I know? My only knowledge of God is from how other people have described him. What makes everybody think Paul of Tarsus was right about everything? One minute he's stoning Christians, the next minute he's fallen off his horse seeing the light. After that he's falling out with a number of Christians who actually knew Jesus personally. Not exactly the actions of an infallible sage. Why should we take his opinions as truth? |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
![]() |
|
| Aqua Letifer | Dec 9 2010, 11:05 AM Post #158 |
|
ZOOOOOM!
|
If you performed your due diligence with every other kind of belief system in the world, you would find that conflict and disagreement exist there, too. |
| I cite irreconcilable differences. | |
![]() |
|
| Larry | Dec 9 2010, 11:06 AM Post #159 |
![]()
Mmmmmmm, pie!
|
Kenny, you had no intent to "rush out and become a Christian" in the first place, so there's no need to pollute the religion just to please you. |
|
Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
![]() |
|
| kenny | Dec 9 2010, 11:09 AM Post #160 |
|
HOLY CARP!!!
|
Yeah I'm the a-hole. |
![]() |
|
| John D'Oh | Dec 9 2010, 11:10 AM Post #161 |
|
MAMIL
|
Guys, you should have bought a Mac. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
![]() |
|
| Frank_W | Dec 9 2010, 11:12 AM Post #162 |
![]()
Resident Misanthrope
|
Agreed, John. The God that people seem satisfied to believe in, seems like some kind of lesser deity. "If you do _____, you'll make God sad." "When people do _____, it makes God angry." If God is truly God, then God must be First Cause over and above and beyond everything! The second such a deity became the Effect of anything, then such a being would immediately cease to be God, because clearly there would be something more powerful than that deity's alleged omnipotence. |
|
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
![]() |
|
| Frank_W | Dec 9 2010, 11:13 AM Post #163 |
![]()
Resident Misanthrope
|
We already knew that, Kenny.
|
|
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
![]() |
|
| Aqua Letifer | Dec 9 2010, 11:13 AM Post #164 |
|
ZOOOOOM!
|
You said it, not me. My point was that you're dogging on Christianity for a problem inherent in all belief systems, because it's a human problem. People differ. Accept diversity. It's good that we're different and things. |
| I cite irreconcilable differences. | |
![]() |
|
| John D'Oh | Dec 9 2010, 11:13 AM Post #165 |
|
MAMIL
|
It's the old saw - Man creates God in his own image. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
![]() |
|
| kluurs | Dec 9 2010, 11:13 AM Post #166 |
![]()
Fulla-Carp
|
apples and oranges to an extent. I see Buddhist philosophy (as opposed to religion) as a helpful set of tools for life - and not incompatible with Christian beliefs. One can look to a particular sect of Buddhism for evidence to the contrary - but heck, one can do that with Christianity as well - Jim Jones and his koolaid come to mind. Sex, alchohol, money - not inherently evil - except if they become the sacred calf of a person's life. As for mysticism, it was a part of the early church - and it seems clear that gnostic and other influences were incorporated into the early gospels - e.g. the imagery of light and darkness were gnostic concepts. The Gospel of John - which is where your quote regarding Jesus as truth comes from is often considered the most mystic of the Gospels. It is also clear in reading Paul - that some of the discussions we are having - are probably not far afield from some of the discussions that various factions of the early church(es) experienced. While you say the scripture provides a clear blueprint to salvation, the clarity has been subject to different interpretation - going to back to the early days of the early christian churches. |
![]() |
|
| kluurs | Dec 9 2010, 11:18 AM Post #167 |
![]()
Fulla-Carp
|
But that's why you're part of the club... Welcome! |
![]() |
|
| KlavierBauer | Dec 9 2010, 11:18 AM Post #168 |
![]()
HOLY CARP!!!
|
Larry: I haven't yet mentioned Centering Prayer in any way - I simply mentioned a form of meditation dating back to the Desert Fathers (third century CE) - not the 60's and 70's, and how it resembled in many ways, many of the meditation practices of the East. This mostly, is because Christianity *is* an eastern religion, having its roots absolutely in the eastern world. It early on carried many of those cultural traditions as well, such as meditation and prayer. I said I didn't want to debate it, so I keep trying to hold my tongue and not address point by point the things you're writing - I'm not involved in a pissing contest, and am not trying to be (btw Jon, perhaps you didn't mean "heretic" - based on the definition of the word it wouldn't fit). We do indeed have very different ideas though, about Christianity, what sources of Christianity are authoritative, and so on. I'm fine with that - like I said, I'm just trying to make it through this life and figure out a small piece of it on my own. My knowledge certainly isn't authoritative, and I don't think I know everything about the early church. I know a little bit about it though, and my understanding and yours don't seem to gel, so perhaps we can just leave it at that? |
|
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
![]() |
|
| Frank_W | Dec 9 2010, 11:21 AM Post #169 |
![]()
Resident Misanthrope
|
A lot of fundamentalist Christians can't get their mind around what gnosticism/mysticism really are. Jesus Himself was a mystic. This is why He was frowned upon by the authorities of Orthodox Judaism, and as His following grew, they felt threatened -- Specifically, their coffers that were enriched by people buying doves and other animals to make sacrifice. This is why Jesus overthrew the tables of the moneychangers in the temple. His mission was to tear down the need for intercession between God and mankind. In other words, so that mankind could directly experience God. This is the very definition of mysticism/gnosticism. And yes, meditation and contemplation and taking the time to be silent and actually listen, are part and parcel of this, and have many many references of such in the Bible. The thing I've always liked about Catholicism, is that at least they made room for their mystics. Fundamentalist Christianity, not so much. Anything that fundamentalists can't immediately understand, they are quick to label as heresy, and say that it's "of the Devil." God talked directly to people who took the time to listen, and did it constantly throughout the Bible. God still speaks. The trouble is, too many people are too busy treating God like a Cosmic Santa, rather than taking time to listen. What's wrong with sitting down, getting quiet inside, filling yourself with love, and then saying, "Here i am, God. I'm listening. What do you have for me, today?" If you are interested in a real relationship with God, this is where it begins, IMHO. |
|
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
![]() |
|
| Larry | Dec 9 2010, 11:21 AM Post #170 |
![]()
Mmmmmmm, pie!
|
Gosh, I was totally unaware that Jerusalem was in Asia.... |
|
Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
![]() |
|
| Larry | Dec 9 2010, 11:23 AM Post #171 |
![]()
Mmmmmmm, pie!
|
Jesus was not a mystic. |
|
Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
![]() |
|
| Frank_W | Dec 9 2010, 11:25 AM Post #172 |
![]()
Resident Misanthrope
|
Larry, you are mistaken and unwilling to put in any sort of research on the matter, or even elaborate, so I guess we'll agree to disagree.
|
|
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
![]() |
|
| KlavierBauer | Dec 9 2010, 11:25 AM Post #173 |
![]()
HOLY CARP!!!
|
Once again, we both have different understandings of history, and its definitions. Here's one definition of the Eastern World:
|
|
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
![]() |
|
| Larry | Dec 9 2010, 11:28 AM Post #174 |
![]()
Mmmmmmm, pie!
|
http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/dissent/centerprayer.htm |
|
Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
![]() |
|
| kluurs | Dec 9 2010, 11:29 AM Post #175 |
![]()
Fulla-Carp
|
Without becoming too Clintonian...depends on how one defines mystic or mystical - using American Heritage - 2 of the definitions fit pretty well. Mystical is defined as "of or having a spiritual reality or import not apparent to the intelligence or senses." "Of, relating to, or stemming from direct communication with ultimate reality or God. Edited by kluurs, Dec 9 2010, 11:50 AM.
|
![]() |
|
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · The New Coffee Room · Next Topic » |









Talk about having a serious self-esteem crisis!



11:05 AM Jul 11