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Buddhism
Topic Started: Dec 8 2010, 08:08 AM (5,146 Views)
KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Ha! Depends on the type of gas, but I'm sure we can diffuse it sufficiently.

Heck, it may disperse naturally if left alone.
Works with White gas and Natural gas...

...
and methane I've heard. (exception: SBD)
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Now, on page 17, let's get back to Buddhism ...

Quote:
 
Excerpt from the Diamond Sutra:

Section XXVI. The Body of Truth has no Marks
Subhuti, what do you think? May the Tathagata be perceived by the thirty-two marks [of a great man]?
Subhuti answered: No, the Tathagata may not be perceived thereby.
Then Buddha said: Subhuti, if the Tathagata may be perceived by such marks, any great imperial ruler is the same as the Tathagata.
Subhuti then said to Buddha: World-honored One, as I understand the meaning of Buddha's words, the Tathagata may not be perceived by the thirty-two marks.
Whereupon the World-honored One uttered this verse:
Who sees Me by form,
Who seeks Me in sound,
Perverted are his footsteps upon the Way,
For he cannot perceive the Tathagata.
 
Section XXVII. It is Erroneous to Affirm that All Things are Ever Extinguished
Subhuti, if you should conceive the idea that the Tathagata attained the Consummation of Incomparable Enlightenment by reason of His perfect form, do not countenance such thoughts. The Tathagata's attainment was not by reason of His perfect form. [On the other hand] Subhuti, if you should conceive the idea that anyone in whom dawns the Consummation of Incomparable Enlightenment declares that all manifest standards are ended andextinguished, do not countenance such thoughts. Wherefore? Because the man in whom the Consummation of Incomparable Enlightenment dawns does not affirm concerning any formula that it is finally extinguished.
 
Section XXVIII. Attachment to Rewards of Merit
Subhuti, if one Bodhisattva bestows in charity sufficient of the seven treasures to fill as many worlds as there are sand-grains in the river Ganges, and another, realizing that all things are egoless, attains perfection through patient forbearance, the merit of the latter will far exceed that of the former. Why is this, Subhuti? It is because all Bodhisattvas are insentient as to the rewards of merit.
Then Subhuti said to Buddha: What is this saying, World-honored One, that Bodhisattvas are insentient as to rewards of merit?
[And Buddha answered]: Subhuti, Bodhisattvas who achieve merit should not be fettered with desire for rewards. Thus it is said that the rewards of merit are not received.
 
Section XXIX. Perfect Tranquility
Subhuti, if anyone should say that the Tathagata comes or goes or sits or reclines, he fails to understand my teaching. Why? Because Tathagata has neither whence nor whither, therefore is He called "Tathagata".
 
Section XXX. The Integral Principle
Subhuti, if a good man or a good woman ground an infinite number of galaxies of worlds to dust, would the resulting minute particles be many?
Subhuti replied: Many indeed, World-honored One! Wherefore? Because if such were really minute particles Buddha would not have spoken of them as minute particles. For as to this, Buddha has declared that they are not really such. "Minute particles" is just the name given to them. Also, World-honored One, when the Tathagata speaks of galaxies of worlds, these are not worlds; for if reality could be predicated of a world it would be a self-existent cosmos and the Tathagata teaches that there is really no such thing. "Cosmos" is merely a figure of speech.
[Then Buddha said]: Subhuti, words cannot explain the real nature of a cosmos. Only common people fettered with desire make use of this arbitrary method.
 
Section XXXI. Conventional Truth Should be Cut Off
Subhuti, if anyone should say that Buddha declares any conception of egoity do you consider he would understand my teaching correctly?
No, World-honored One, such a man would not have any sound understanding of the Tathagata's teaching, because the World-honored One declares that notions of selfhood, personality, entity and separate individuality, as really existing, are erroneous - these terms are merely figures of speech.
[Thereupon Buddha said]: Subhuti, those who aspire to the Consummation of Incomparable Enlightenment should recognize and understand all varieties of things in the same way and cut off the arising of [views which are mere] aspects. Subhuti, as regards aspects, the Tathagata declares that in reality they are not such. They are called "aspects".
 
Section XXXII. The Delusion of Appearances
Subhuti, someone might fill innumerable worlds with the seven treasures and give all away in gifts of alms, but if any good man or any good woman awakens the thought of Enlightenment and takes even only four lines from this Discourse, reciting, using, receiving, retaining and spreading them abroad and explaining them for the benefit of others, it will be far more meritorious. Now in what manner may he explain them to others? By detachment from appearances - abiding in Real Truth. - So I tell you - Thus shall ye think of all this fleeting world:
A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream;
A flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream.
 
When the Buddha finished this Discourse the venerable Subhuti, together with the bhikshus, bhikshunis, lay-brothers and sisters, and the whole realms of Gods, Men and Titans, were filled with joy by His teaching, and, taking it sincerely to heart they went their ways. 
Source: http://community.palouse.net/lotus/diamond26-33.htm

Kenny, you dig?
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Everyone, let's let Ax and Kenny have this thread back. They're both obviously *super* anxious to talk about this.
Ax posts beautiful, meaningful, and truthful writings, asks Kenny if he digs, and Kenny says "I dig."

Sort of beatnik really. *snaps fingers as he walks away*
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
KlavierBauer
Dec 10 2010, 05:02 PM
I hope my writing didn't imply that a priest isn't necessary
I wish you'd decide which side of that fence you're going to stand on. These kinds of jams happen when one tries to massage his answer in order to "win" an argument. I asked where the Bible taught the notion that we had to have an intermediary to confess our sins, and you claimed you didn't, that you only had to have a "witness". Then you had to back up and admit the only one qualified to be that "witness" was a priest. Now you admit a priest is necessary, but add another tangent that was not even part of the original question.

So the facts are, your religion says you have to confess to a witness, the witness can only be an orthodox priest. I know of no scripture that says that is necessary, which means you are following church dogma instead of scripture, and not all church dogma is scriptural based.


Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
I was careful not to stipulate what was "needed" - I tried instead to bring context to the sacrament itself. I tried to be clear that my effort was to communicate that the priest isn't himself absolving one of sins, and that God is. My use of the word "witness" was to take focus away from the Priest as the one absolving you of sins. I'm on one side of the fence, but I apologize if my communication wasn't clear.
Your summary of my stance is precisely why I tried to stay out of the logistics of it, and speak about the point of the sacrament itself. The idea isn't that sins are only pardoned if confessed to a Priest. The concept is a much more complex and deep one (as is the case with sacraments in general) having to do with the physical actions we take to aid in the working out of our salvation. These include things like Baptism, Communion, Confession, Marriage, and so on. So, this isn't a discussion on the legalistic "you have to do this or that," but of "how can I best practice humility to better prepare myself?" I've commented enough on the "but that isn't scriptural" idea - so I'll just let that slide.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
I was careful not to stipulate what was "needed" - I tried instead to bring context to the sacrament itself. I tried to be clear that my effort was to communicate that the priest isn't himself absolving one of sins, and that God is.


Since that wasn't what I had asked, there was no reason to spend such effort making that point.

Quote:
 
My use of the word "witness" was to take focus away from the Priest as the one absolving you of sins.


Your use of the word "witness" was because you were trying to dodge my question through semantics, because you knew full well that I didn't ask if you believed a priest is the one who forgave your sins, but if you had to go through a priest to confess your sins. Had you used the word priest, you would have been admitting the very thing you were trying to explain away.

Quote:
 
Your summary of my stance is precisely why I tried to stay out of the logistics of it, and speak about the point of the sacrament itself. The idea isn't that sins are only pardoned if confessed to a Priest. The concept is a much more complex and deep one (as is the case with sacraments in general) having to do with the physical actions we take to aid in the working out of our salvation. These include things like Baptism, Communion, Confession, Marriage, and so on. So, this isn't a discussion on the legalistic "you have to do this or that," but of "how can I best practice humility to better prepare myself?" I've commented enough on the "but that isn't scriptural" idea - so I'll just let that slide.


You now give a list of legalistic church dogma that has nothing to do with scripture and then tell me it isn't a discussion of legalistic church dogma.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
I'm not dodging anything, but trying to bring some clarity perhaps, to the post that you questioned, where you asserted I was flip-flopping around. I'm also not trying to explain anything away, but trying to explain a complex idea in pretty general terms for two reasons: 1) I already know you don't agree with it, so there isn't much gained by me explaining it in great detail, and 2) You keep bringing it back to "confession of sins" as a blanket statement, rather than the Sacrament of confession which I'm describing - so I'm not sure you're seeing the difference between God's Grace being able to account for, and remove our sins, and the personal act/sacrament of confession where one practices a cleansing humility by admitting the flaws on their conscience to a person in a position of authority, seeking absolution, counseling, and prayer (confession is more like a counseling session than the typical movie depiction).
I wasn't trying to respond with legalistic dogma in describing your summary, I was trying to speak gently about why I've described some things the way I have, as I feel there is some trouble in understanding them completely.
I'm not engaging you in conflict, but simply trying to explain why I believe what I do - I'm not trying to convert you, so you needn't defend anything. I already know you don't agree with me, so pointing out where you think I'm wrong only seems provocative, and off-putting.

IT correctly pointed out an area where I was ambiguous, which I admitted, and tried to correct without saying anything I didn't personally find truthful, and without getting into a discussion of finer details above my own level of understanding - but I don't think that makes me a back-peddler.

That's about all I can tell you - as I said quite awhile back, I enjoy the discussion, but only if it's just that - I have no intention of arguing or debating my beliefs. I'm not trying to convince you that mine are right - I'm simply trying to show that they may have validity, and aren't "new age" as has been promoted. I have no desire to change your beliefs if you're happy with them Larry, and I wish you nothing but the best, every day of your life (which should go without saying, but just in case...).
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
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What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
WAKA WAKA WAKA!!!

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"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
Larry
Dec 10 2010, 08:00 PM
So the facts are, your religion says you have to confess to a witness, the witness can only be an orthodox priest. I know of no scripture that says that is necessary, which means you are following church dogma instead of scripture, and not all church dogma is scriptural based.


So are you then suggesting the Eastern and Latin Rites are guilty of the heinous sin of legal positivism? :lol2:

....the problem, Larry, lies with the peculiar and overly facile brand of *protestantism* of latter day schismatics such as yourself, not with the established and revered traditions and sacraments of the Apostolic Church.

Bite me.

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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
I see that your religion is more important to you than the God it supposedly worships.


I can see a situation where somewhere out in the future, someone will make the point that Buddhism and Christianity used to be two different religions and there used to be some guy they talked about who claimed to be God incarnate but the only thing they can remember about him now is that he was a little fat man who sat with his legs crossed... and a preacher will wake himself up from his meditative trance long enough to smile and say "Ok..." and then go back to chanting his "centering word", smugly secure in his opinion that the poor fellow was just not as informed as him - and someone in the room who's more interested in his religion rituals than he is in anything else will get in a huff and say "bite me".

I haven't asked you to accept protestantism. I haven't said a thing to you as you repeatedly tried to take swipes at protestantism. I am not even the one who turned this into a discussion of catholic/orthodox/protestantism. I made it quite clear that I was discussing the infiltration of New Age thought into the church, yours, mine, and every other brand of Christian church there is out there.

But you and KB seem to be more concerned with protecting the legalism and ritualism of your church than you do in discussing the cancer that is spreading throughout the entire Christian church.

So sir, you can bite ME.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
You chaps should join the Church of England. We welcome free thinkers, and disagreement is permitted, in fact it's almost obligatory. I believe that even women are allowed to become priests, in direct contradiction of Saint Paul's teaching.

UNBELIEVABLE! WOMEN, IN CASSOCKS!

How's that for radical - going against the express instructions of some bloke who lived 2000 years ago!

Sadly, the cunning Bavarian currently residing in Vatican City has attempted to take advantage of this, by attempting to entice right-thinking people over to his empire! There is no depth to which he will not stoop to undo what 'Enery VIII started!

I say, ignore these evil machinations. Stay true to the one true church. Canterbury and Saint George shall rise again! [Salutes]
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
Larry
Dec 11 2010, 05:22 PM
I made it quite clear that I was discussing the infiltration of New Age thought into the church, yours, mine, and every other brand of Christian church there is out there.

I have no church. I am apostate. Although you're right, I loathe disdain protestantism- Church of England excepted.

Maul me.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
I hate mauls...
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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AndyD
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Senior Carp
Quote:
 
You chaps should join the Church of England. We welcome free thinkers, and disagreement is permitted, in fact it's almost obligatory. I believe that even women are allowed to become priests, in direct contradiction of Saint Paul's teaching.

UNBELIEVABLE! WOMEN, IN CASSOCKS!

How's that for radical - going against the express instructions of some bloke who lived 2000 years ago!

Sadly, the cunning Bavarian currently residing in Vatican City has attempted to take advantage of this, by attempting to entice right-thinking people over to his empire! There is no depth to which he will not stoop to undo what 'Enery VIII started!


:lol2: An ironic summary of everything that is right with the C of E.
Every morning the soul is once again as good as new, and again one offers it to one's brothers & sisters in life.

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jon-nyc
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Cheers
kenny
Dec 10 2010, 10:37 AM
Hey as long as we're focusing on Buddhism, what do you guys think about abortion?

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Oh man, the fetus really hit the fan now.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 

Excerpt from THE BODHISATTVA KISHITIGARBHA VOW SUTRA,
CHAPTER 2: KISHITIGARBHA INCARNATED IN THE ASSEMBLY

At that time, millions of divinely incarnated forms of Kishitigarbha from inconceivable, uncountable and unutterable worlds and hells came together to Trayastrimsa Heaven Palace. Buddha used his divine power to lead all Bodhisattvas from all worlds, and all those beings released from the hells to come here. Everybody brought flowers to Buddha. These multitudes were those beings whom Bodhisattva Kishitigarbha had instructed, and who would never regress from Buddha's wisdom. For many aeons, they had floated throughout life and death, suffering in the six levels, with no time to rest. Because of Bodhisattva Kishitigarbha's benevolence and compassion, and his great vow, all had attained a certain level of spiritual development. They came happily to Trayastrimsa and reverently gazed at Buddha.

At that time, World-Honored One stretched out his golden arms and touched all the incarnated heads of Bodhisattva Kishitigarbha, Mahasattva. He said, "I cultivate those hard and violent living beings in the world and in the human condition, subduing their hearts. I hope they can renounce evil and do good deeds. However, one or two-tenths of them still have evil habits. I incarnate myself into billions of forms, and use many convenient ways to save them from suffering. Some of them are very receptive; they believe and practice the Dharma as soon as they hear it. Some of them who have done a few good deeds can become better after I patiently teach and guide them. Some of them are dark and dull - it takes a long time to cultivate them before they will take refuge in the Dharma. Some of them who have heavy karma do not even respect the Triple Gems at all.

"Since such beings have many distinct characters, I always incarnate myself to deliver them from pain and suffering. In order to help them, I incarnate myself in the mountain, forest, stream, plain, river, pond, fountain or well. I show myself not only in the image of Buddha but also in the image of man, woman, heavenly being, dragon, ghost or god. In order to benefit them, I also show myself as an emperor king, Brahma King, Wheel-Turning King, layman, country's king, prime minister, government official, monk, nun, Sound-Hearer, Arhan, Pratyekabuddha or Bodhisattva.

"You, Kishitigarbha, have observed that I have diligently worked for a long time to release hard and obstinate suffering criminal beings. As for those who have not improved, if they fall into evil or suffer from past karma retribution, you should remember what I gently taught and repeated to you in Trayastrimsa Heaven Palace - that is, to release all those beings in the Saha World, until the coming of Maitreya, from suffering forever; and to encounter Buddhas and receive the Dharma. "

At that time, all the incarnated forms of Bodhisattva Kishitigarbha from many worlds gathered into a single form and said to Buddha tearfully, "I have been instructed by Buddha for long aeons. I have gained inconceivable divine power and wisdom. The boundless worlds are filled with my incarnations. In order to make them take refuge in and respect the Three Treasures, to escape from life and death forever, and achieve Nirvana's bliss, I have incarnated billions of bodies in every world. Every one I have incarnated has taught hundreds, thousands or billions of people. Even if their good deeds within the Buddhadharma are as little as a hair, a drop, a grain of sand, or a speck of dust, I will gradually save them and make them gain great benefits. Please World-Honored One, do not be concerned for those beings in the future." Bodhisattva Kishitigarbha said to Buddha three times, "Please World-Honored One, do not be concerned for future beings with bad karma."

Buddha then praised Bodhisattva Kishitigarbha and said, "Very good, very good. I am pleased that you have made such a vow. You will achieve your vow and after all have been cultivated and instructed you will attain Bodhi.

Source: [/i]itigarbha%20Bodhisattva%20Vow%20Sutra.htm]LINK

Kenny, you dig?
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
Axtremus
Dec 13 2010, 05:09 AM

Kenny, you dig?
Well, I read it.

I've been digging over 50 years now.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
kenny
Dec 13 2010, 06:28 AM
I've been digging over 50 years now.
It's probably past time to go see a doctor about it, then.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Preparation H helps with that.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Axtremus
Dec 13 2010, 05:09 AM
Kenny, you dig?
Buddhists speak like 1950's jazz musicians!

I'm gone, brother!
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Nah ... Ax speak is not necessarily representative of Buddhists speak; no more that D'Oh speak being representative of Church of England speak. :D
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
I believe that Dr. Owen Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury has been known to refer to His Holiness as 'The Bavarian knobhead', although admittedly only behind closed doors.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
I can't believe I read the whole thing.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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