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Buddhism
Topic Started: Dec 8 2010, 08:08 AM (5,149 Views)
Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Now, on page 15, let's get back to Buddhism again …

Quote:
 
THE DIAMOND SUTRA

Section I. The Convocation of the Assembly
Thus have I heard. Upon a time Buddha sojourned in Anathapindika's Park by Shravasti with a great company of bhikshus, even twelve hundred and fifty. One day, at the time for breaking fast, the World-honored One enrobed, and carrying His bowl made His way into the great city of Shravasti to beg for His food. In the midst of the city He begged from door to door according to rule. This done, He returned to His retreat and took His meal. When He had finished He put away His robe and begging bowl, washed His feet, arranged His seat, and sat down.
 
Section II. Subhuti Makes a Request
Now in the midst of the assembly was the Venerable Subhuti. Forthwith he arose, uncovered his right shoulder, knelt upon his right knee, and, respectfully raising his hands with palms joined, addressed Buddha thus: World-honored One, if good men and good women seek the Consummation of Incomparable Enlightenment, by what criteria should they abide and how should they control their thoughts?
Buddha said: Very good, Subhuti! Just as you say, the Tathagata is ever-mindful of all the Bodhisattvas, protecting and instructing them well. Now listen and take my words to heart: I will declare to you by what criteria good men and good women seeking the Consummation of Incomparable Enlightenment should abide, and how they should control their thoughts.
Said Subhuti: Pray, do, World-honored One. With joyful anticipation we long to hear.
 
Section III. The Real Teaching of the Great Way
Buddha said: Subhuti, all the Bodhisattva-Heroes should discipline their thoughts as follows: All living creatures of whatever class, born from eggs, from wombs, from moisture, or by transformation whether with form or without form, whether in a state of thinking or exempt from thought-necessity, or wholly beyond all thought realms -- all these are caused by Me to attain Unbounded Liberation Nirvana. Yet when vast, uncountable, immeasurable numbers of beings have thus been liberated, verily no being has been liberated. Why is this, Subhuti? It is because no Bodhisattva who is a real Bodhisattva cherishes the idea of an ego-entity, a personality, a being, or a separated individuality.
 
Section IV. Even the Most Beneficent Practices are Relative
Furthermore, Subhuti, in the practice of charity a Bodhisattva should be detached. That is to say, he should practice charity without regard to appearances; without regard to sound, odor, touch, flavor or any quality. Subhuti, thus should the Bodhisattva practice charity without attachment. Wherefore? In such a case his merit is incalculable. Subhuti, what do you think? Can you measure all the space extending eastward?
No, World-honored One, I cannot.
Then can you, Subhuti, measure all the space extending southward, westward, northward, or in any other direction, including nadir and zenith?
No, World-honored One, I cannot.
Well, Subhuti, equally incalculable is the merit of the Bodhisattva who practices charity without any attachment to appearances. Subhuti, Bodhisattvas should persevere one-pointedly in this instruction.
 
Section V. Understanding the Ultimate Principle of Reality
Subhuti, what do you think? Is the Tathagata to be recognized by some material characteristic?
No, World-honored One; the Tathagata cannot be recognized by any material characteristic. Wherefore? Because the Tathagata has said that material characteristics are not, in fact, material characteristics.
Buddha said: Subhuti, wheresoever are material characteristics there is delusion; but whoso perceives that all characteristics are in fact no-characteristics, perceives the Tathagata.
Source: http://community.palouse.net/lotus/diamond1-5.htm

Kenny, you dig?
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kenny
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I dig.
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KlavierBauer
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Difficult read for me Ax, but very interesting nonetheless.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Larry
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No, Jesus was not New Age.

I would suggest those who think he was spend some time learning exactly what New Age means.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Larry
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Nor did he promote redistribution of wealth.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Copper
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Larry
Dec 10 2010, 11:39 AM
No, Jesus was not New Age.

I would suggest those who think he was spend some time learning exactly what New Age means.


I believe what it means on the previous page is that Jesus is on our side.

This is a common misconception.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
What I want to know, is when do the meek get their turn? Everybody else has had a go, and it's clearly not worked. Maybe now would be a good time?


Might I humbly suggest myself as Supreme Ruler of the Meek? It's gonna be a pretty easy job.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
John D'Oh
Dec 10 2010, 11:46 AM
Might I humbly suggest myself as Supreme Ruler of the Meek? It's gonna be a pretty easy job.
Well, that's how it's been done in the past. Dude shows up, says, "I'm in charge now!" and is, least for awhile. Until of course some other dude shows up and declares the same, in which case they both have it out.

This was my thesis statement for my "History of Civilization" class final.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Larry
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Quote:
 
I just responded to your misunderstanding of it and when New Age thinking began infecting Christendom. Truth be known New Age thinking as you call it may have started in 14th century with John Wycliffe and the Lollards in England.


Actually, the basis of New Age thought began in the garden of eden when satan tricked mankind into believing that he could become God. As for Wycliffe, I fail to see how someone who rebelled against the catholic church and promoted a scripture based theology would be considered New Age.


Quote:
 
Others may argue that it occurred before in 12th century Geneva with Peter Waldo and the Waldensian Movement.


Again, I fail to see how promoting a scripture based theology instead of the mess the catholic church promoted.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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kluurs
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Larry
Dec 10 2010, 11:40 AM
Nor did he promote redistribution of wealth.
Jesus looking at him loved him, and said to him, "One thing you lack. Go, sell whatever you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me, taking up the cross."

But his face fell at that saying, and he went away sorrowful, for he was one who had great possessions. Jesus looked around, and said to his disciples, "How difficult it is for those who have riches to enter into the Kingdom of God!"

....

I know he really meant anyone named Rich to enter the Kingdom of God.
Edited by kluurs, Dec 10 2010, 11:56 AM.
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Larry
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Giving to the poor is not redistribution of wealth.

If you read the scripture about the rich man in context, you will find that it is not the possession of wealth that will keep you out of heaven, but the love of it, and the spending of more time pursuing it than in pursuing God - unless you now want to argue that only poor people can be saved.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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KlavierBauer
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Kluurs: I think clearly some were called to give up everything and follow Christ. At the same time, that wasn't his calling to everyone. I'm not disagreeing with your point - There are definitely problems that come with having money that will make salvation trickier. It's a fine line between worshiping what you have, and having it without worshiping it.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Larry
Dec 10 2010, 12:06 PM
unless you now want to argue that only poor people can be saved.

Only poor people and people rich enough to afford the highly coveted pygmy camel.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Renauda
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Larry
Dec 10 2010, 11:54 AM
Again, I fail to see how promoting a scripture based theology instead of the mess the catholic church promoted.

No wonder you fail to see. Your thinking is grossly infested by heinous 16th Century reformationist New Age thinking.
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KlavierBauer
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LOL John.

Chuck Norris will obviously be in as well, regardless of his success with the Total Gym.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Exactly. The story was about a rich man who came to Jesus asking what good thing could he do to gain eternal life. Jesus asked him why he wanted to know that, and told him no one was good but God. Then Jesus told him if he wanted to gain eternal life to obey the commandments. The rich man asked him which ones, Jesus listed them. The rich man said that he had done that, and asked what he still lacked. Jesus then changed the focus, and his answer can be taken as a bit sarcastic - he didn't say "if you want to be good", he said "If you want to be perfect, go sell everything you own and give it to the poor, and then come follow me". The rich man went away sad, because he was not willing to do that.

Jesus didn't tell him his riches would keep him from gaining eternal life. When he first answered the man's question, he told him simply to keep the commandments. Only after the man insisted that he was already doing that - in other words, began to argue his own point of view...... did Jesus test his commitment by asking him to do the one thing he knew the man would not do - give up that which meant the most to him.

The message he conveyed to his disciples afterward was not that the man wouldn't gain eternal life because he was rich, but that the man wanted to "have it his way", in other words, his money meant more to him than eternal life did, so he was asking Jesus in essence to tell him he could have eternal life by simply "doing something".

That is what is behind much of the confusion in this thread, actually - people tend to want to create God in *their* image - they want to decide ahead of time what God is, and how they can follow him, and then they look for whatever will agree with their particular "version" of what God is and what worshiping God means. I would imagine that had the man been a practitioner of "centered prayer" Jesus would have told him to put away his Buddhist practices and then come follow him, and when the person was unwilling to do so, Jesus would have told his disciples that it is hard for a person who creates his own blended religion to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Renauda
Dec 10 2010, 12:19 PM
Larry
Dec 10 2010, 11:54 AM
Again, I fail to see how promoting a scripture based theology instead of the mess the catholic church promoted.

No wonder you fail to see. Your thinking is grossly infested by heinous 16th Century reformationist New Age thinking.
Sorry, but the notion of basing your theology on scripture instead of church dogma is not in any way connected with New Age thinking.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Similarly, for some one who's attached to pie, Jesus would have him to put down his pie and then follow him.

2nd Amendment enthusiasts would have been told to put down their guns.

Mac lovers would have been told to forsake all things Apple.

Republicans would have been told to give up their tax cuts and small government.

Democrats would have been told to give up their welfare programs and big government.

Bible thumpers would have been told to put down their Bibles.

American patriots would have been told to stop pledging allegiance to the American flag.

Dang it ... all these talk about not getting attached to stuff sounds pretty Buddhist.
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Renauda
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Larry
Dec 10 2010, 12:36 PM
Sorry, but the notion of basing your theology on scripture instead of church dogma is not in any way connected with New Age thinking.

Church dogma is based on scripture. It cannot be otherwise.
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Larry
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If pie meant more to the person than Jesus Christ, then yes.
If guns meant more to the person than Jesus Christ, then yes.
If your Mac means more to you than Jesus Christ, then yes.
If your politics means more to you than Jesus Christ, then yes.
If thumping your bible means more to you than Jesus Christ, then yes.

Where it differs from Buddhism is that Jesus Christ is the one that is to be followed, not Buddha, or his teachings. For if those teachings mean more to you than Jesus Christ, the answer is the same - it will be difficult for you to enter the Kingdom of heaven. You don't have to believe that, that's your choice. But the *instant* one claims to be a Christian, THAT is where his focus is supposed to be, not on blending the good parts of various religions in order to appeal to a post modern world by reinventing the teachings of Christianity to make it appeal to the nonChristian's idea of what it should be.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Renauda
Dec 10 2010, 12:45 PM
Larry
Dec 10 2010, 12:36 PM
Sorry, but the notion of basing your theology on scripture instead of church dogma is not in any way connected with New Age thinking.

Church dogma is based on scripture. It cannot be otherwise.
Where is praying to Mary or the Saints based on scripture?
Where is counting beads when you pray found in scripture?
Where in scripture does it say that I need to confess my sins to a priest, or to consider a pope to be God's representative on earth?

I could go on, but that makes my point. Church dogma is worthless.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Renauda
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Larry
Dec 10 2010, 12:56 PM
Church dogma is worthless.

As is theology in my opinion, but that's beside the point.

It's all based on an ancient set of texts and myths we refer to as scripture that has been rewritten and translated for over two millenia. It simply cannot be otherwise.

To put it in biblical terms, your way of thinking about all this strikes me as more Pharisee than orthodox Christian.
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Larry
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If you find theology worthless, the study of the nature of God, then you don't have a dog in this hunt to start with, do you?


As for the "ancient texts and myths" - we're discussing Christianity, that entails the New Testament. The New Testament does not qualify as "myth" because the vast majority of it was written within a relatively short span of time, and was available to people who were alive and eyewitness to the accounts being discussed. If what was written wasn't accurate, they would have been rejected as false. The texts we have today are virtually identical to the ones that were available then. Translating the texts is a nonissue - the veracity of a given translation can be examined.

I find your last comment rather amusing however, since it was the Pharisees who were so concerned with church dogma instead of the scriptures, and in this discussion you are the one promoting church dogma, I'm the one promoting scripture based theology and who rejects church dogma.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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kenny
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Lar, did they teach you Jesus lived in Tennessee too?
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Larry
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Kenny, what is that supposed to mean? Is it some sort of attempt to ridicule me? Go ahead. Make all the fun you want.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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