| Welcome to The New Coffee Room. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Luke got jumped by 3 kids at school. | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 12 2010, 08:58 AM (1,625 Views) | |
| Luke's Dad | Nov 13 2010, 07:20 AM Post #51 |
![]()
Emperor Pengin
|
BTW, M&M's is worse about this by far than me. She not only wants Luke to defend himself, she wants Luke to "Put them down" and "Make them cry like the babies they are". I might be para-phrasing a bit, but that's the general gist.
|
| The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it. | |
![]() |
|
| Luke's Dad | Nov 13 2010, 07:26 AM Post #52 |
![]()
Emperor Pengin
|
That's what we've done, and should Luke receive a suspension for defending himself, that's the approach we'll take. Should we find out he was an instigator, or just got into a regular fight, otoh... This isn't just about Luke, though. I trust M&M's and myself to be able to counter whatever damage the school system does to him, it's more about the rest of the students that has me worried. They are seriously trying to screw with Franks Sig. |
| The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it. | |
![]() |
|
| Jolly | Nov 13 2010, 07:44 AM Post #53 |
![]()
Geaux Tigers!
|
I did a lot of preaching to my kids and at my kids (imagine that! ).One thing I preached on a lot, was to never start a fight, walk away if ever possible. But I made it crystal clear, that if somebody brought the fight to them and there was no way to avoid it, they better get junkyard dog mean and do their level-headed best to put their attacker down. Yeah, they might suspended, but you let daddy and the principal sort that one out. Sometimes in this old world you can do the right thing and still be punished for it...you still do the right thing and suffer the consequences...which is a hard, but necessary lesson to learn. |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
![]() |
|
| sue | Nov 13 2010, 08:44 AM Post #54 |
|
HOLY CARP!!!
|
that's a pretty confusing message, imo. The problem with the 'everybody involved gets equal punishment' theory is that the bully doesn't have to take responsibility for his behaviour, because clearly everyone is to blame for what happened. So he doesn't learn anything. And the kid who was just defending himself (or his friend, doing the right thing, iow), goes away knowing the bullies of the world are getting the last laugh. Yeah a good parent (like LD and M&Ms) will make sure their kid knows the real story and will come out of it with morals intact, but like LD said, what about all the other kids. My son always said that it was a waste of time to report things to the teachers, discipline was a joke, and that all the kids knew it. |
![]() |
|
| Renauda | Nov 13 2010, 09:03 AM Post #55 |
![]()
HOLY CARP!!!
|
I totally agree. My father said the same and added, "always walk away never run because once you start running you'll never stop". It seems that schools want our kids to run. Refusing to run is well worth taking the petty suspension. |
![]() |
|
| KlavierBauer | Nov 13 2010, 05:10 PM Post #56 |
![]()
HOLY CARP!!!
|
Fundamentally I agree with what Jolly and Renauda are saying. I'm against the idea that fighting is "good" for kids, or that it's somehow a normal part of growing up, yet I also feel that every human has the ability, and the responsibility to defend themselves. Otherwise, we have a Ghandi like world in which the Jews should've let the Nazis exterminate them in favor of peace. That being said, it's important to note that at Mrs. KB's school, there's a slightly different student population than in most parts of the country. It's also a middle school, and these kids have all already been in fights, and indeed have already encountered more violence than most of us every will. It's imperative for them to learn how to solve problems without violence, and break a cycle that is already generations thick. It would be a very different situation if at family dinner, Pa sat the boy down and explained to him how he must never fight - for any reason, but that defending himself is ok. And explain the difference (defending oneself doesn't need to involve partaking in a fight - it needs only involve diffusing a situation and disabling one or more attackers). These kids though don't get that family dinner. They get a very different message from groups like MS13, and it's a message that doesn't lead to self defense, but to kids dying. I only say that to make it clear that the kids Mrs.KB's talking about are not your kids, and they're living in a very different world. In their world, their only chance at success in this life is in learning to avoid confrontation, and learning to address dispute in a different manor. LsD: While I'd be ok with my kid defending himself, I wouldn't be angry if he didn't. Not every kid is made to fight or defend himself. I don't think there's any loss of honor in that. You almost sounded disappointed in him for not striking these kids back - kids he knew as very close friends. I know it's tough situation, but I think in the end Luke didn't do the wrong thing - nor would he have been doing the wrong thing if he had defended himself. |
|
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
![]() |
|
| Piano*Dad | Nov 13 2010, 05:36 PM Post #57 |
|
Bull-Carp
|
Wisdom. |
![]() |
|
| Piano*Dad | Nov 13 2010, 05:40 PM Post #58 |
|
Bull-Carp
|
BTW, this is what Gandhi actually did advocate ... calling Hitler "not a bad man" as well. |
![]() |
|
| Luke's Dad | Nov 13 2010, 05:56 PM Post #59 |
![]()
Emperor Pengin
|
Not at all. I'd be fine if he'd been able to run away and did so. I admit, I would be a little concerned if he had just stayed there and took it because he didn't want to fight back, but Luke's defended himself before in a slightly different situation (at a friend's house dealing with their older brother), and I've been told that he was more than willing to make a stand and not be pushed around. When my son's who has stood up for himself before is crying though telling me he wanted to make them stop but didn't want to get in trouble? That's going to get me going. Edited by Luke's Dad, Nov 13 2010, 06:01 PM.
|
| The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it. | |
![]() |
|
| Aqua Letifer | Nov 13 2010, 06:54 PM Post #60 |
|
ZOOOOOM!
|
Well, I disagree pretty strongly with that. |
| I cite irreconcilable differences. | |
![]() |
|
| Dewey | Nov 13 2010, 08:00 PM Post #61 |
![]()
HOLY CARP!!!
|
A vision of Ralphie and Scut Farkis just popped into my head... |
|
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
![]() |
|
| kluurs | Nov 13 2010, 08:14 PM Post #62 |
![]()
Fulla-Carp
|
He showed courage in taking the stand he did. He did what he thought was right. Maybe it wasn't - but he still did his best. If he'd decided to defend himself -and then been disciplined, I think that would have been OK too. Sometimes that's what happens. Life ain't fair. He's dealing with issues that we all struggle with - a boss who is abusive - but you have a family to support. An in-law that screws you - but you've got to keep the family peace. It ain't always pretty - and not everything is like a Clint Eastwood picture. The good news is you've got an amazing son - and he's got a great dad. |
![]() |
|
| KlavierBauer | Nov 13 2010, 09:19 PM Post #63 |
![]()
HOLY CARP!!!
|
AL: I'd be ok with my child defending himself, as long as "defending" doesn't mean he pounds some kid into the ground who pushed him... Not every child though, is made to react that way. What is a very normal reaction for some (physical defense) isn't for others, based on a number of factors. To see that as some loss of honor is what leads kids to do ridiculous things for their parent's approval. And that kid's dad is the kind who sees that lack of fighting as being a "wuss." He's the same guy who drinks cheap beer at little league game and decks the ump over a bad call. |
|
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
![]() |
|
| MrsKB | Nov 13 2010, 09:26 PM Post #64 |
|
Middle Aged Carp
|
So I'm going to verbally defend myself and make you cry like the babies you are and then deal with the consequences... I am not saying that we should not defend ourselves when under attack. I am saying that if we choose to do so, there will be consequences--whether we think it's fair or not. I think kluurs is right on. It totally sucks that Luke got jumped--by 3 friends no less. And if you have issue with how the school handled the situation I would only encourage you and the mrs to let them know how you feel. I've typed and deleted, typed and deleted, so now I'll just post the reply... |
| Winning is a habit. Watch your thoughts, they become your beliefs. Watch your beliefs, they become your words. Watch your words, they become your actions. Watch your actions, they become your habits. Watch your habits, they become your character. ~Vince Lombardi | |
![]() |
|
| Aqua Letifer | Nov 13 2010, 09:28 PM Post #65 |
|
ZOOOOOM!
|
Bullying, abuse, heck violence of any kind can take many forms. People may try to jump you when you're not ready, use numbers against you, weapons, etc. Other more subtle tactics include slow escalation (taunting, pushing, then actual blows), which can take minutes to weeks, depending. Or maybe they'll do JUST ENOUGH to likely not get caught, and continue abusing over and over. Depending on the situation, I would absolutely be okay with me, or heck even my kid, breaking the teeth loose of some kid who pushed him. It's an extreme case, and depends very much on the details, but if the reaction cut short any future torment then I have absolutely no problem with that.
This isn't about being a wussy. This is the most basic rule there is. Every living thing on the earth has the ability to defend itself. If it's ill-equipped to struggle with the dangers of life, it dies out. People need to understand that sometimes they may have to themselves, because there are plenty of situations where you can't rely on other people to bail you out. If a child, adult or anyone else doesn't understand this then they potentially have a very serious problem on their hands, the next time they're in such a situation. But you're right, I believe that this has gotten away from people, so much so that so many of us are ill-prepared for even the slightest tinge of conflict. Which I think is entirely unhealthy. |
| I cite irreconcilable differences. | |
![]() |
|
| KlavierBauer | Nov 13 2010, 09:36 PM Post #66 |
![]()
HOLY CARP!!!
|
We both agree that defense of one's self is wholly acceptable, and indeed, required sometimes. We simply disagree on what "defense" is. Knocking out someone's teeth for being pushed isn't self defense in my book. In my book - the only time you fight is when you have no choice - and in my book, being pushed doesn't require a closed fist to the teeth to diffuse the situation. Not to mention, punching someone with a closed fist in the teeth is about the worse idea.
Edited by KlavierBauer, Nov 13 2010, 09:36 PM.
|
|
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
![]() |
|
| Aqua Letifer | Nov 13 2010, 09:42 PM Post #67 |
|
ZOOOOOM!
|
Yep. "Agree to disagree" FTW! (Or maybe you wanna fight about it! )Another scenario: Say you're at a bar and some drunken idiot appears to want to start things with you. It gets close, so much so that you're within one quick hand movement of getting into a fistfight. You can't tell at all if the guy's for sure going to hit you but you know he sure wants to. So what do you do? There's no one around, and if you turn and walk away you might get your jaw unhinged by a cheap shot from behind. (In fact this exact thing happened to a friend of a friend of mine, and he spent 6 months with his jaw wired shut, because he turned his back.) Me personally, in that kind of uncertainty, I think it'd be much better to either hit first, or more appropriately, try to get him to take a swing to get things going. That way, when all is said and done, you can turn your back from the situation and not have to worry about cheap shots from behind.
|
| I cite irreconcilable differences. | |
![]() |
|
| KlavierBauer | Nov 13 2010, 09:53 PM Post #68 |
![]()
HOLY CARP!!!
|
Personally - I've been in the above situation more than once, and have witnessed the same situation with friends probably 10 or more times. I've never seen it turn into a fight - unless one of my friends got equally in their face. I personally wouldn't hit first. One, because I enjoy a clean arrest record, and two because in my own (perhaps illogical) ruleset, it isn't yet justified. One slow-drunken swing though, is justification enough for an elbow or tiger-punch to the trachea - either of which would pretty quickly diffuse things. Of course then I'd have to contend with his friends if there are any. I'd much rather walk away from the situation if possible. I would only fight if I had no other option, and at that point I'd fight for my life, not to make a point. I wouldn't be punching, I'd be clawing eyes out and tearing ears off. |
|
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
![]() |
|
| sue | Nov 13 2010, 09:53 PM Post #69 |
|
HOLY CARP!!!
|
That's a very real school ground situation, and one where the mamby pamby hand holding conflict resolution stuff just doesn't work. Puts the power in the bully's hands, and slaps the victim in the face. It's ridiculous and insulting to tell kids they shouldn't defend themselves. |
![]() |
|
| MrsKB | Nov 13 2010, 09:58 PM Post #70 |
|
Middle Aged Carp
|
Wow, Sue. It sounds like you've had some horrible experience with the namby pamby Restorative Justice approach (to which I am a big fan). It certainly does NOT put the power in the bully's hands, and if that's something that you've witnessed, then it's being done wrong. Slaps the victim in the face? That's absolutely absurd. It empowers the victim by allowing them to address the issue in a safe environment. I don't think anyone here has been saying that kids shouldn't defend themselves. The fact of the matter is that how they choose to do so might result in consequences that need to be weighed before taking action. |
| Winning is a habit. Watch your thoughts, they become your beliefs. Watch your beliefs, they become your words. Watch your words, they become your actions. Watch your actions, they become your habits. Watch your habits, they become your character. ~Vince Lombardi | |
![]() |
|
| KlavierBauer | Nov 13 2010, 10:03 PM Post #71 |
![]()
HOLY CARP!!!
|
I'd add, that in this area at least - accusations of bullying aren't taken lightly. I can imagine that in some rural areas, or 10 years ago where accusing someone of bullying would've been dismissed by authority figures, and resulted in the kid having a worse time of it afterward. I'm not sure that's the case now though, after several high-profile incidences of bullying and/or cyber-bullying have resulted in beatings or death. It's pretty common now for bullying to be take pretty seriously (again, in this area at least) with criminal prosecution a possibility for kids choosing to manipulate others in this way. |
|
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
![]() |
|
| Aqua Letifer | Nov 13 2010, 10:03 PM Post #72 |
|
ZOOOOOM!
|
I don't think being given empty platitudes (or being ignored altogether) by teachers, principals and guidance counselors while the abuse continues fits my definition of "empowerment." Just what can anyone do if there's no evidence and nobody catches the abusers in the act? In fact if all the kid has in his arsenal is to tell authority figures, that can make the abuse get worse, not better. Maybe "restorative justice" works in other circumstances but when I was growing up we all knew this sort of approach was a total joke. |
| I cite irreconcilable differences. | |
![]() |
|
| MrsKB | Nov 13 2010, 10:20 PM Post #73 |
|
Middle Aged Carp
|
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Kids tell me outright they're afraid of the situation getting worse, but the way we handle it, it hasn't so far, so it's working for us. Doesn't mean it's going to work everywhere. But I have kids actively involved in gangs, kids whose parents tell them to fight back (some do, some don't), kids who fight for pride and respect over anything else. A lot of times the fight starts because of a misunderstanding--a he said, she said--and as I said in an earlier post, once we get to the bottom of the issue, they end up ok with each other. In my world of work, teaching my kids how to verbally communicate with each other is a victory. So, I guess...to each his/her own. |
| Winning is a habit. Watch your thoughts, they become your beliefs. Watch your beliefs, they become your words. Watch your words, they become your actions. Watch your actions, they become your habits. Watch your habits, they become your character. ~Vince Lombardi | |
![]() |
|
| Aqua Letifer | Nov 13 2010, 10:28 PM Post #74 |
|
ZOOOOOM!
|
Well it's not that I advocate just throwing fists around, and yes absolutely a kid should try to tell an adult what's happening first, if possible. But that's the clincher right there, how the adult handles the problem. In many situations I have no doubt they can intervene and prevent anything worse from happening. Luckily I didn't have many of these issues growing up but I remember the kids who did, and the system totally failed them. Not only that, some kids just have trouble on the agenda and no amount of communication's going to put them right. So I'd be wary of letting kids place too much trust into letting others solve issues for them, since that's not going to work every time. Like Larry said, in the long run it'd be good for kids to eat more dirt every so often. |
| I cite irreconcilable differences. | |
![]() |
|
| KlavierBauer | Nov 13 2010, 10:33 PM Post #75 |
![]()
HOLY CARP!!!
|
There's a difference in talking about kids who grow up to play on the high school golf team, and kids who are already members of MS-13 in middle school. That's why I tried to say earlier, it's possible that people are talking about very different types of student groups here, where one group has plenty of machismo, and needs to actually tone it down *QUITE* a bit to be able to survive in a civilized world, outside of jail. |
|
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
![]() |
|
|
|
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · The New Coffee Room · Next Topic » |












)

12:52 AM Jul 11