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| Luke got jumped by 3 kids at school. | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 12 2010, 08:58 AM (1,626 Views) | |
| Piano*Dad | Nov 12 2010, 01:24 PM Post #26 |
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Bull-Carp
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Yeah, that would be my fear as well. My son's experience with 'fighting' issues has been benign. Mature adults have not lost their common sense. Yet so many of the school system's incentives aren't really compatible with anything we might regard as common sense. |
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| sue | Nov 12 2010, 02:20 PM Post #27 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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My kid's elementary school had the policy of equally punishing any kids involved in a fight. One family (my neighbours) actually pulled their son and put him in another school because of it. My own son's one and only schoolyard fight (that I was aware of) was the same. He jumped in to defend a friend who was getting beaten up by an older boy. And then a few more of his buddies also joined in. So Colin was accused of being the instigator, ended up in detention alongside the bully kid. It was one of those life lesson episodes. Colin was absolutely adamant that he did the right thing and would do it again; you don't just watch a friend getting beat up. And the realisation that life isn't fair, adults can make stupid decisions and all that. |
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| MrsKB | Nov 12 2010, 03:21 PM Post #28 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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Wow--I hope Luke is ok!! Being a school administrator my first reaction was to rush to the defense of school employees, but yes, sometimes decisions are made that not all parties are happy with. My school's policy is if a fight occurs and both (or more) parties put their hands on each other, then yes, all who have physically interacted receive suspensions. I know a lot of our parents find issue with this, but we tell our students to come and get adults to take care of the situation--it's not for the kids to resolve by "going to heads"--no matter if you're defending yourself or not. And believe it or not, the kids understand this and accept it once we sit down and talk to them about it. And I work in an area where fighting is a socially acceptable means of solving disuputes. If one is the aggressor and does the hitting and the other doesn't, then the offender receives the consequence. Depending on the severity of the fight, we can also involve the police and issue tickets. What we try to do more often than not, in place of suspension, is something called Restorative Justice, where we mediate between the two parties and talk it out. I work at a middle school and am pretty impressed when 2 friends get into it with each other and within minutes of us sitting down to talk about it, they're apologizing to each other, pounding knuckles, and moving on. Bullying is a big problem, and as far as my school is concerned, we take steps as soon as we hear that there's a conflict among our students: we gather them in the office and talk it out. If that doesn't seem like it's going anywhere, we're on the phone with parents to let them know what's going on and bring them in for a conference. |
| Winning is a habit. Watch your thoughts, they become your beliefs. Watch your beliefs, they become your words. Watch your words, they become your actions. Watch your actions, they become your habits. Watch your habits, they become your character. ~Vince Lombardi | |
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| Luke's Dad | Nov 12 2010, 04:25 PM Post #29 |
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Emperor Pengin
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I absolutely agree that a child should always run to an adult every single time they possibly can to avoid a fight. No problems with that. But whenever a child is waylaid by three other children, and running away is impossible, what's the child supposed to do? Lay there and accept it? Absolutely not. There is so much wrong with that and the message ot teaches children that I can hardly contain my anger over it. Everybody has the ethical right to defend themselves from physical harm, and moreso, they have a moral obligation in most situations to do so. Including kids. |
| The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it. | |
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| Luke's Dad | Nov 12 2010, 04:36 PM Post #30 |
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Emperor Pengin
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It's that type of policy discouraging students from defending themselves that leads to the sheep like mentality that make events like Columbine and VA Tech possible. If one one or two people would have defended themselves, so many more people would still be alive, but instead we try to teach kids that they shouldn't defend themselves and should depend on "Authority", even when that authority is nowhere in sight. Fvck that. |
| The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it. | |
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| Luke's Dad | Nov 12 2010, 04:37 PM Post #31 |
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Emperor Pengin
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Social engineering. You've gotta love it. |
| The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it. | |
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| NAK | Nov 12 2010, 04:41 PM Post #32 |
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Senior Carp
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So are you saying Luke fought back, and is now being penalized for defending himself? |
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| sue | Nov 12 2010, 04:57 PM Post #33 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I have a real problem with that. Sure, in theory, going to an adult is the right thing to do. But it is not always going to be the best option, and like LD said, to tell a kid to not defend himself is just plain wrong. Or to tell a kid that he shouldn't help a friend who's being beaten up. Teachers are not always right at your side. I feel very strongly that these things should be looked on in a case by case basis. Punishing a kid for doing the right thing is really messed up. |
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| sue | Nov 12 2010, 04:59 PM Post #34 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Absolutely right. |
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| Mikhailoh | Nov 12 2010, 05:29 PM Post #35 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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Horse hockey. Any being has the right to defend itself. To argue to the contrary is to defy nature. Conflict, physical and otherwise, is at the center of interaction of all life. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 12 2010, 05:42 PM Post #36 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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As I said elsewhere, the Left understands neither business nor human nature... |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Mikhailoh | Nov 12 2010, 05:43 PM Post #37 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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Yup. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| Larry | Nov 12 2010, 07:09 PM Post #38 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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If I'm understanding this right, the school is punishing your kid for defending himself in the same way as they are punishing the kids who started it. I would take that school apart. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Dewey | Nov 12 2010, 07:15 PM Post #39 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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It would be particularly stupid to punish him for defending himself against THREE attackers. It's hard to run and get an adult when two people are holding you to the ground while a third is punching you. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| brenda | Nov 12 2010, 07:34 PM Post #40 |
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..............
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Wow, LD. I completely understand your outrage. |
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“Weeds are flowers, too, once you get to know them.” ~A.A. Milne | |
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| Piano*Dad | Nov 12 2010, 07:45 PM Post #41 |
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Bull-Carp
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You guys are jumping on MrsKB without listening to her. There is a huge difference between laying there and taking it, which MrsKB most certainly has not advocated, and choosing to engage in a fist fight when easy alternatives exist. In most 'school fight' situations, a true 'defender' often has the opportunity to back away. If he chooses to fight it out instead then what's a school to do? My youngest once was assaulted by one of the lower IQ neanderthals at his school. The kid walked up and grabbed his lunch money. My son went up to him and took it back. Risky move, I suppose, but somewhat instinctual (he wanted to eat lunch ). He then turned around and walked away without performing any puffed up 'wanna rumble' nonsense. The other kid came after him in plain view of about a quarter of the school (including adults) and threw a punch. One kid was suspended for a lengthy term. The other was completely in the clear. This is, of course, quite different from the 'cornered by three thugs' scenario. I have taught my kids that they can use all appropriate force to defend themselves, but the first choice is simple escape if that option is available.
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| brenda | Nov 12 2010, 07:59 PM Post #42 |
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..............
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PD, I'm not arguing the points MrsKB made. I'm seeing the possibility of a situation where the recipient of the punches cannot escape. What's the kid to do? BTW, in grade school, I was the one who kept our local school bullies from picking on the other kids. I was tall for my age at the time, and somewhat athletic. Only a couple times did I have to actually fight a bully. Usually just walking up to them and telling them to cut it out was enough. It would be interesting to meet them today and have them see that their former nemesis is a short, fat, middle-aged lady!
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“Weeds are flowers, too, once you get to know them.” ~A.A. Milne | |
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| Luke's Dad | Nov 12 2010, 08:00 PM Post #43 |
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Emperor Pengin
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No, actually Luke didn't defend himself. He was scared he would get in trouble. That's why I'm outraged. The school has been hammering home to the kids that if they do fight back in anyway "NO MATTER WHAT THE CIRCUMSTANCES" (Direct quote from the Vice-Principle), then they will be suspended, even if it's purely defensive. Apparantly, Luke even asked about this once in school when they were telling students about the rule, as it contradicted what I and his Karate teacher told him. It seems they twisted what we've said, and told him that we were correct "when in a dark alleyway", but otherwise they should never hit anybody for any reason, or else "be in serious trouble". That's what really has me pissed. As has been noted by others here, boys are boys and sometimes fight happens. Learning to deal with it is part of growing up and parenting. I'm fine wth that. When they start fvcking around wth a kid's beliefs about defending themself, that's a different story. As a result, Luke was scared of the other kids, but he was even more scared of getting in trouble. |
| The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it. | |
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| Luke's Dad | Nov 12 2010, 08:03 PM Post #44 |
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Emperor Pengin
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Here's the really bad part. The school made it a point of giving Luke and the other boy special rewards for doing the right thing, and not defending themselves! |
| The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it. | |
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| apple | Nov 12 2010, 08:10 PM Post #45 |
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one of the angels
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well, peace to you Luke's Dad with the odd karma of it all. how weird. |
| it behooves me to behold | |
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| sue | Nov 12 2010, 09:55 PM Post #46 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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yeah that sounds like our school. No room for taking into account the actual circumstances; too much trouble for the admins. We also had some touchy feely looks good on paper mantra like the " Restorative Justice" crap. Everybody is equal, etc. I'm sorry, but that's just a joke for the kids involved. To not make it clear to a kid that being beat up by somebody is not ok, and that you have the right to defend yourself is just nonsense. |
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| Claude Ball | Nov 12 2010, 10:51 PM Post #47 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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When I was goin' thru the second grade for the 3rd time, me, Charles, and Ralph went out during recess and caught us some June bugs. Then we took the magnifying glasses we had snuck outa class and while we wuz holdin' them bugs by their feet, we started in focusin' the light on the back of the june bug to set it afire. Pore old Wayne (he wuzn't very smart) saw us and he wanted to do it too, so we told him to go git a magnifying glass and come back and we'd catch him a june bug and show him out it's done. So old Wayne come back with a magnifying glass, and we gave him a june bug and showed him how to do it. He squatted down and started in focusing that light on the june bug, and he was so busy thinkin' about how to keep that light focused in on the june bug that he didn't notice that me, Charles, and Ralph had all got in behind him and wuz focusing all 3 of our magnifying glasses onto the back of his neck right in the same spot. After about a minute we saw this smoke start curlin' up off of his neck. He didn't notice it at first, he wuz too busy thinkin' about that june bug. But if finally got too hot and he jumped up yellin' and screamin' and tore into the school house squawlin' like a banshee, and he told on us. Now back then there wuzn't no touchy feely liberals runnin' round worryin' about everyone's "rights". They had 1X4 boards about 2 foot long with handles carved on one end and holes drilled all over the board, and they would beat the livin' sh!t outa you with it. So they did, and we never did that again. Wayne never asked us too again though.... |
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Dain bramage caused my peach imspediment. Tooth? Tooth? You can't handle the tooth! Remember: He who laughs last, thinks slowest..... DON'T BEND OVER IN THE GARDEN, MARGARET - THEM TATER'S GOT EYES! | |
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| Aqua Letifer | Nov 12 2010, 10:52 PM Post #48 |
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ZOOOOOM!
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Look I'm not a parent or anything, but here's the thing: just how important are such events at Luke's age? Sure when I was his age, I thought being suspended was pretty bad indeed, but if that happens once or twice in the course of grade school, I really don't think it'll hinder him in any way. So what I says is **** that school, tell Luke the truth, that it's necessary to defend yourself if you can't easily find an adult, and if he ever gets suspended for doing so, explain to him when he gets home and many days and years after that he did the right thing. |
| I cite irreconcilable differences. | |
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| Claude Ball | Nov 12 2010, 10:56 PM Post #49 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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Then there was the time that Porter stuffed an M-80 firecracker up a cat's ass at the halloween carnival at the school, lit it, and then set the cat down on the ground. Everybody was laughing about how fast the cat could run until it exploded.... But I didn't have nothin' to do with that. I wuz just a witness.. I swear.. |
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Dain bramage caused my peach imspediment. Tooth? Tooth? You can't handle the tooth! Remember: He who laughs last, thinks slowest..... DON'T BEND OVER IN THE GARDEN, MARGARET - THEM TATER'S GOT EYES! | |
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| Kincaid | Nov 12 2010, 11:07 PM Post #50 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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A compromise: How about suspensions for everyone involved but a kid that is just defending himself also gets an ice cream? |
| Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006. | |
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). He then turned around and walked away without performing any puffed up 'wanna rumble' nonsense. The other kid came after him in plain view of about a quarter of the school (including adults) and threw a punch. One kid was suspended for a lengthy term. The other was completely in the clear. This is, of course, quite different from the 'cornered by three thugs' scenario. I have taught my kids that they can use all appropriate force to defend themselves, but the first choice is simple escape if that option is available.

12:52 AM Jul 11