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First it was Happy Meals, now it's circumcision.; What's a kid to do?
Topic Started: Nov 11 2010, 06:10 PM (625 Views)
ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
jgoo
Nov 12 2010, 12:03 AM
Axtremus
Nov 11 2010, 11:55 PM
(pppssss.... IT, want to bring in abortion now; like, how some people can support letting would-be parents abort their whole fetuses and yet won't let parents consent to cutting off their sons' foreskins? ;) )
Not to open THAT whole can of worms, but IMHO, abortion = murder, and that's all the more I care to go into on that one at this point. It can be a massive flamewar topic!
Ax was just being .... provocative. :lol2:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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jgoo
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Axtremus
Nov 11 2010, 11:50 PM
Want to take it a step further? No permanent tattoo and no body piercing for all minors.
I can agree with the no permanent tattoo thing, most definitely. Body piercings should be 13 though (with parental consent). Piercings aren't permanent. They heal if left out, and 13 seems an acceptable age for someone to make a conscious decide to try it, and just take it out and let it heal if they have a change of heart.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
ivorythumper
Nov 11 2010, 11:58 PM
Axtremus
Nov 11 2010, 11:50 PM
ivorythumper
Nov 11 2010, 11:37 PM
... I seriously doubt you (personally) want any governmental agency, bureaucrat, policy wonk or legally empowered social worker telling you (personally) how you (personally) must raise your own children under the penalty of law.
I'm defending all (male) children from practically pointless mutilation.

Want to take it a step further? No permanent tattoo and no body piercing for all minors. Who among your parents want to go this far? :silly:
That is the point -- how far do you want to take it? Regulating what you are allowed to feed them? Regulating what they are allowed to watch on TV or the amount of time they can? Regulating what toys they can play with? Regulating how you can discipline them and what tone of voice you must use?

In this instance, circumcision is a relatively safe and benign procedure, and done by state certified professionals. I would rather not have government intrusion into the rights of parents to raise their children as they best see fit rather than allow more government intrusion into any areas of concern that is properly the domain of parents.

I assure you that *some* policy wonk or bureaucrat can easily find fault with the way anyone raises their children, and would be more than happy to have the force of law behind them to demand how you must do so.
Yes, circumcision is mostly "safe" (as in fairly "low risk" as far as surgical procedures go) -- but also mostly "unnecessary" and "irreversible."

That's why you want to reserve the right to make that decision to the person when he's attained adulthood, and not let his parents/legal guardians take that decision away from him prematurely.

What's the difference with permanent tattoo and body piercing?

Ask a kid whether he wants this tattoo or that piercing, a good number will say yes, if they are not already asking for some specific tattoos and/or piercings. Ask a kid whether he wants this little piece of skin snipped off, virtually all will say no. Informed or not, there's a big "consent" issue right there.

Put on a ballot that says "no parent should have his child's body pierced or permanently tattooed against the child's will," and I would not hesitate to support it -- and I bet most parents (and people, in general) would, as well.

As it is, we don't have a problem in American where parents force permanent tattoos or body piercings onto their kids, but we do have parents forcing circumcisions onto their male children. That's why a law protecting the children from such force is a good thing to have.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
jgoo
Nov 12 2010, 12:19 AM
Axtremus
Nov 11 2010, 11:50 PM
Want to take it a step further? No permanent tattoo and no body piercing for all minors.
I can agree with the no permanent tattoo thing, most definitely. Body piercings should be 13 though (with parental consent). Piercings aren't permanent. They heal if left out, and 13 seems an acceptable age for someone to make a conscious decide to try it, and just take it out and let it heal if they have a change of heart.
Yes, that's a sensible way to approach this. Not all piercings are equal; some do heal after a while.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Axtremus
Nov 12 2010, 12:38 AM
ivorythumper
Nov 11 2010, 11:58 PM
Axtremus
Nov 11 2010, 11:50 PM
ivorythumper
Nov 11 2010, 11:37 PM
... I seriously doubt you (personally) want any governmental agency, bureaucrat, policy wonk or legally empowered social worker telling you (personally) how you (personally) must raise your own children under the penalty of law.
I'm defending all (male) children from practically pointless mutilation.

Want to take it a step further? No permanent tattoo and no body piercing for all minors. Who among your parents want to go this far? :silly:
That is the point -- how far do you want to take it? Regulating what you are allowed to feed them? Regulating what they are allowed to watch on TV or the amount of time they can? Regulating what toys they can play with? Regulating how you can discipline them and what tone of voice you must use?

In this instance, circumcision is a relatively safe and benign procedure, and done by state certified professionals. I would rather not have government intrusion into the rights of parents to raise their children as they best see fit rather than allow more government intrusion into any areas of concern that is properly the domain of parents.

I assure you that *some* policy wonk or bureaucrat can easily find fault with the way anyone raises their children, and would be more than happy to have the force of law behind them to demand how you must do so.
Yes, circumcision is mostly "safe" (as in fairly "low risk" as far as surgical procedures go) -- but also mostly "unnecessary" and "irreversible."

That's why you want to reserve the right to make that decision to the person when he's attained adulthood, and not let his parents/legal guardians take that decision away from him prematurely.

What's the difference with permanent tattoo and body piercing?

Ask a kid whether he wants this tattoo or that piercing, a good number will say yes, if they are not already asking for some specific tattoos and/or piercings. Ask a kid whether he wants this little piece of skin snipped off, virtually all will say no. Informed or not, there's a big "consent" issue right there.

Put on a ballot that says "no parent should have his child's body pierced or permanently tattooed against the child's will," and I would not hesitate to support it -- and I bet most parents (and people, in general) would, as well.

As it is, we don't have a problem in American where parents force permanent tattoos or body piercings onto their kids, but we do have parents forcing circumcisions onto their male children. That's why a law protecting the children from such force is a good thing to have.
I got it. You are willing to subject yourself to what the majority of people, or the general will of the collective, decide is how you should raise your children. The actual matter -- circumcision, tattoos, food, discipline, TV consumption, etc -- is beside the point.

I am not willing to do so. I think there are better ways to discourage circumcision (and other poor practices) without legislation or criminal penalty.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Piano*Dad
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Bull-Carp
Interesting. Not a single person here has spoken in favor of allowing a major religion to continue a 5,000 year old practice that is statistically quite safe (despite the occasional error that can occur), and which has a cost benefit tradeoff that is not all cost and no benefit.

Well, perhaps that's not quite fair. IT is at least somewhat troubled by the thought of a government intruding here and ordering the change.

Some have used the word mutilation, which is getting pretty close to analogizing with female 'circumcision.' Frankly, I find that comparison stupid beyond words.

IT is quite correct in noting that parents will make many choices that are far more consequential for their children than the removal of this bit of skin.

The practice is falling by the wayside already among the non-Jewish population because the medical rationale that made it more desirable in a less clean society is less compelling. The practice is also losing the cachet that comes from 'being in the group' as fewer boys are seen as 'strange' because they are NOT circumcised like everybody else.
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Piano*Dad
Nov 12 2010, 04:53 AM
The practice is falling by the wayside already among the non-Jewish population ...
Tell that to the 1B muslims in the world.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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George K
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Finally
Boy.

Kenny is back.

A circumcision thread.

Life is good.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
jon-nyc
Nov 12 2010, 06:33 AM
Piano*Dad
Nov 12 2010, 04:53 AM
The practice is falling by the wayside already among the non-Jewish population ...
Tell that to the 1B muslims in the world.
For that reason alone I am all for outlawing the practice for non Jews.

Anything to offend, enrage and bring about an end to *the religion peace*; after all for them it's not a covenant or even a doctrinal requirement. No for them it's just a bad habit they picked up from their Jewish neighbours.
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Piano*Dad
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Bull-Carp
Quote:
 
For that reason alone I am all for outlawing the practice for non Jews. ...for them it's just a bad habit they picked up from their Jewish neighbours.


:lol2:
.
.
.
:whome:
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Renauda
Nov 12 2010, 07:05 AM

Anything to offend and enrage and bring about an end to *the religion peace*
Well if you really want to bring an end to it, we could require that they cut a little further down.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
So, not only is this damnable government trying to undermine McDonalds wonderful hamburgers, now they're also trying to restrict one of their primary sources of ingredients!
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Piano*Dad
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Bull-Carp
MD uses cows' lips, D'Oh, cows' lips. Got it.
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Piano*Dad
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Bull-Carp
jon-nyc
Nov 12 2010, 07:24 AM
Renauda
Nov 12 2010, 07:05 AM

Anything to offend and enrage and bring about an end to *the religion peace*
Well if you really want to bring an end to it, we could require that they cut a little further down.
A little testes this morning, are we?
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
Foreskins make great wallets. Then, if you suddenly have to pack for an overnight trip, rub it a little, and it turns into a suitcase. :)
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
Piano*Dad
Nov 12 2010, 07:48 AM
jon-nyc
Nov 12 2010, 07:24 AM
Renauda
Nov 12 2010, 07:05 AM

Anything to offend and enrage and bring about an end to *the religion peace*
Well if you really want to bring an end to it, we could require that they cut a little further down.
A little testes this morning, are we?
Give jon credit; it was a eunuch idea- and not without precedent in Islam- to emasculate the spread of a global problem.
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1hp
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Fulla-Carp

Quote:
 
....and respect for the Jewish sensibilities


Yes, this is an issue. However I think this is slowly coming under attack, largely brought on by all the of Shiah law stuff, now in the news. At some point the Supreme Court is going to start ruling on what are acceptable religious practices, and what aren't and there is a good chance that some smart lawyers are going to fight to include body mutilation of kids in this.
There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those that understand binary and................
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Piano*Dad
Nov 12 2010, 04:53 AM
Interesting. Not a single person here has spoken in favor of allowing a major religion to continue a 5,000 year old practice that is statistically quite safe (despite the occasional error that can occur), and which has a cost benefit tradeoff that is not all cost and no benefit.
What benefit?
If it's not medically necessary, then there is no benefit.
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George K
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Finally
Axtremus
Nov 16 2010, 03:55 AM
Piano*Dad
Nov 12 2010, 04:53 AM
Interesting. Not a single person here has spoken in favor of allowing a major religion to continue a 5,000 year old practice that is statistically quite safe (despite the occasional error that can occur), and which has a cost benefit tradeoff that is not all cost and no benefit.
What benefit?
If it's not medically necessary, then there is no benefit.
Most urologists will say that there is a definite (though small) medical benefit to circumcision.

And, before you pull out the "tonsil yanked" and "foot rustler" meme, they are not the ones doing the procedure 99.99% of the time. It's usually done by the OB.

Furthermore, if you want to talk about "medical benefit", why is Viagra covered in the new "health" care bill?
Edited by George K, Nov 16 2010, 04:11 AM.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
George K
Nov 16 2010, 04:10 AM
... why is Viagra covered in the new "health" care bill?
Don't know ... I don't think it should.
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Piano*Dad
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Bull-Carp
Ax, it's rather silly to claim that 'medical necessity' = 'benefit.' And without 'necessity' there is no 'benefit.' Posted Image

Define 'necessary' in an intellectually consistent way? Do you mean "won't die with 100% probability within ten days." One person's necessity is another's want.

Benefit simply means reduced problems in some measurable way. If removing the foreskin reduces the likelihood of disease for some people then there is a 'benefit.' If there is any risk of complication from the procedure, then there is a 'cost.' Weighing the importance of those two is often an individual decision.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
If we remove the genitals altogether, there would likely be three distinct benefits:

1. Reduction in over-population.

2. Reduction in the spread of venereal disease.

3. Some really great choral works.

OK, who wants to go first?
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Piano*Dad
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Bull-Carp
After you!

As you know, uncircumcised boys can still go on to become castrati. ;)
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
George K
Nov 16 2010, 04:10 AM
Furthermore, if you want to talk about "medical benefit", why is Viagra covered in the new "health" care bill?
Because the bill was written by a bunch of old men?
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
1hp
Nov 12 2010, 08:49 AM
Quote:
 
....and respect for the Jewish sensibilities


Yes, this is an issue. However I think this is slowly coming under attack, largely brought on by all the of Shiah law stuff, now in the news. At some point the Supreme Court is going to start ruling on what are acceptable religious practices, and what aren't and there is a good chance that some smart lawyers are going to fight to include body mutilation of kids in this.
Muslims typically circumcise as well as Jews.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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