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Doctors v. Guns
Topic Started: Aug 17 2010, 01:45 PM (1,088 Views)
KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
I would like to point out that while the number of accidental gun deaths is low - it can be included in the figure above.

Ax: The nuke argument is also a red herring. Dictators can't harm entire ethnic groups with either a gun, nor a baseball bat or other non-firearm close-range weapon. It doesn't apply to the discussion.

I can carry a knife at all times - concealed - and can injure or kill just as easily as with a firearm. Canadian bus riders know this to be true.
If the only substantive piece of evidence is a UN graph I'm more than skeptic.
I'm sure the amount of machete violence in the Congo vastly outweighs the amount of machete violence in the U.S. - but it's hardly an argument for taking away sharp objects from law abiding citizens.

As you very well know, gun violence isn't perpetrated by law abiding citizens with legal firearms.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Luke's Dad
Aug 19 2010, 01:51 PM
But not when comparing overall homicide rates. Does it really make it better that somebody was strangled rather than shot?
See post #23; "overall homicide rates" are compared there.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
KB
 
I can carry a knife at all times - concealed - and can injure or kill just as easily as with a firearm.
But you cannot kill as rapidly or from long range with just a knife -- you cannot execute a Columbine or a Virginia Tech with just a knife.
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Luke's Dad
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Emperor Pengin
Axtremus
Aug 19 2010, 02:03 PM
KB
 
I can carry a knife at all times - concealed - and can injure or kill just as easily as with a firearm.
But you cannot kill as rapidly or from long range with just a knife -- you cannot execute a Columbine or a Virginia Tech with just a knife.
You can't execute a Columbine or a VA Tech without sheep for victims, either.
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Axtremus
Aug 19 2010, 02:03 PM
KB
 
I can carry a knife at all times - concealed - and can injure or kill just as easily as with a firearm.
But you cannot kill as rapidly or from long range with just a knife -- you cannot execute a Columbine or a Virginia Tech with just a knife.
A good man with a knife could kill you, your wife and possibly one other person, in less than 5 seconds, starting from a distance of 10 feet.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Axtremus
 
But you cannot kill as rapidly or from long range with just a knife -- you cannot execute a Columbine or a Virginia Tech with just a knife.


Actually - since most outlaws don't practice firing their guns (since they aren't legal), their range is greatly reduced. I'm not sure how familiar you are with handguns, but most people can't hit a target the size of a person with a handgun without a little practice. At least, the novices I've taken shooting for their first times are unable to hit anything prior to instruction. After an hour or so of technique they can typically group shots together much better. The point is - this fact makes it hard for people with legal firearms to kill from a long range, or extremely rapidly relative to a knife wielding agressor.
The point is that both are very dangerous, yet only one causes such debate and fear.
In firearms training there's what's called the 30 foot rule. If an attacker is 30 feet or closer, he can close in on you in less time than it will take to pull your weapon, chamber a round, aim, and fire. This is the argument for carrying "locked and loaded" - but it also demonstrates how vulnerable an untrained person (as most outlaws are) will be with a firearm. Without the fear associated with the gun, gunmen have very little ability to pull off mass killings. The muslim terrorists who took over the school in Russia several years back would've had no chance if all of the people inside had instantly turned on them rather than huddling in fear.

I've mentioned it before, but a similar situation occurred at a church locally where a gunman walked in and began shooting people on Sunday morning. If it hand't been for the trained, conceal-carry security guard there would've been far more than 2 casualties.

I have yet to hear an articulate or compelling argument as to why law abiding citizens who are trained to carry firearms shouldn't be allowed to.
I also have yet to meet a police officer who isn't in favor of the same.
Edited by KlavierBauer, Aug 19 2010, 02:41 PM.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
If you have to teach people how to shoot a handgun in a hurry, first let them find one that fits them.

Very few people won't be able to handle a S&W Model 10.

Ask them to hold the gun at their side, and look at an object or artifact across the room, with both eyes open. Then, have them close their eyes and use the gun to point at whatever they've picked. Then, have them open their eyes and check the sights top see where they are pointing.

Most people will be within a pie plate, or less.

Congratulations, you have just created a Shanghai point shooter. At typical house distances, they are combat effective. Just don't overgun them.

It's never the gun, but the man behind the trigger.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Dewey
Aug 18 2010, 03:09 AM
Axtremus
Aug 18 2010, 02:13 AM
"Accidental deaths"?

What are the stats for "intentional deaths"?
Careful, you're about to start an abortion thread.
Brilliant.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Jolly agreed - a little instruction and dry-firing goes a long way.
My only point was that a novice with no experience actually shooting typically has little chance of hitting a "kill" shot.
In my experience, if you start with a smaller frame gun, it also has to be pretty weak, otherwise it's too much to handle. Something like a small hammerless S&W .38 is nice for concealment, but horrible if you've never fired a gun before, whereas a heavier and larger 1911 or something similar, while larger in caliber may also be easier to control early on.
That's been my experience anyway.
I think something like the Walther P22 is a great place to start, as it feels and acts like a larger gun, but isn't intimidating (or expensive) to shoot. Also in that category would be a mod'd glock or CZ where you have a larger caliber gun modified to fire .22 or similar.

I guess my large point was that the average thug typically lucks out with longer range attacks, and isn't horribly dangerous from a distance, as they probably aren't "marksmen," whereas up close a gun is very dangerous - as is a baseball bat or a knife.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
What have you guys done to my abortion thread? :P

I've checked my aim from my hip with my .22 S&W - almost spot on. When I've tried it from my Ruger 9mm it consistently low.

My favorite line from Get Shorty: "Shot three times in the chest and once in the foot".
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
KlavierBauer
Aug 19 2010, 03:03 PM
Jolly agreed - a little instruction and dry-firing goes a long way.
My only point was that a novice with no experience actually shooting typically has little chance of hitting a "kill" shot.
In my experience, if you start with a smaller frame gun, it also has to be pretty weak, otherwise it's too much to handle. Something like a small hammerless S&W .38 is nice for concealment, but horrible if you've never fired a gun before, whereas a heavier and larger 1911 or something similar, while larger in caliber may also be easier to control early on.
That's been my experience anyway.
I think something like the Walther P22 is a great place to start, as it feels and acts like a larger gun, but isn't intimidating (or expensive) to shoot. Also in that category would be a mod'd glock or CZ where you have a larger caliber gun modified to fire .22 or similar.

I guess my large point was that the average thug typically lucks out with longer range attacks, and isn't horribly dangerous from a distance, as they probably aren't "marksmen," whereas up close a gun is very dangerous - as is a baseball bat or a knife.
My experience is working on dead people.

Several of those folks have been bagged and tagged as the result of a woman using a gun she has seldom, if ever fired. A lot of these folks sport multiple .22 or .25 ACP wounds. Most of the shooting is center mass.

I agree with you at close range, a multitude of weapons become extremely lethal. Even a rock to the head makes for a bad day.

Back to the Model 10 vs Old Slab Sides...if a person can one-hand a .45 ACP, and consistently hit what they are aiming at, within typical combat distances, they have a gun with legendary stopping power. I've shot some of Jim Clark's stuff along with a few by Frank Pachmyer, and the 1911 can be a wonderfully accurate gun. And (at least for me) it doesn't point worth a darn. That's why the Hi-Power has a different grip (it does point very well for most folks).

OTOH, a Model 10 points extremely well...which is why S&W has made over 6 million of them. Couple the revolver with the FBI load (sometimes called the Chicago Load) and not only will it shoot to point of aim, it will do its job on the other end.

Because, contrary to the movies, people exhibit all types of behavior after they have been shot. Some quit whatever they are doing. Some die from a wound that should not be lethal. Some act like you never hit them. Therefore, you shoot the threat until it is no longer a threat...typically, even with a .45, this involves multiple rounds.

Which kinda brings back to my original point...most people don't shoot extremely well and they shoot even worse when they are overgunned. For the average man or woman that means anything much over a .38 or 9mm, they're overgunned. For chuckles and grins, watch the guys taking a CCW class shoot. Even with their chosen firearm, most cannot keep all of their rounds on the silouette.

I mnetioned Jim Cirillo earlier. Jim is often referred to as the "last of the gunfighters"....his record was 17-0. Jim shot a 38 special....
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
I grouped within about 5 inches on my CCW exam. 8 rounds, .45 ACP from a Sig P220.
I shoot much better with it than with my Taurus 9mm, because the Taurus is a smaller frame, and while it is a lighter load, it moves around more because of the mass/load ratio.
Good lord I was hoping to never be talking about mass/load on a forum.

I agree that one doesn't want to be over gunned, but I think there's more than caliber in the equation. My wife is a perfect example. Our first time shooting (and her first or second time ever) she did much better with a .45 in a service-size frame than with a S&W .38 in a conceal/carry frame. It was "less" gun, but harder to control.

I wold my S&W model 29 a couple of years ago because it was just too much of everything, at least from a usability standpoint.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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