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Obama supports Cordoba House; This will bite him big time
Topic Started: Aug 14 2010, 05:13 AM (992 Views)
Jeff
Senior Carp
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/


Obama Defense of "Ground Zero Mosque" Less Risky Than it Seems
by Nate Silver @ 12:03 PM
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President Obama's decision last night to defend the right of a group of Muslim businessmen and religious leaders to build a mosque and Islamic cultural center near the Ground Zero site has won praise from some of his harshest critics -- and criticism from Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin, who seem to be in a competition to see who can stoke the most outrage among the Republican base. Indeed, it was a bold decision -- Obama could have stayed out of what is ostensibly a local matter. But a careful evaluation of the polls reveals it to be less politically risky than it might at first appear.



As I pointed out two weeks ago, there has been considerable ambiguity in most polls on the topic, which did not distinguish one's personal position on the tastefulness of the mosque from one's view about whether or not the developers had the right to build it:
One's personal position on the mosque is not necessarily the same as thinking that the City should take affirmative steps to prohibit its construction by eminent domain laws by or other means. [...] This is somewhat analogous to asking: "do you support or oppose flag-burning?". Without additional context, it would be quite natural for someone to say they opposed it, but they might nevertheless consider it to be Constitutionally protected activity.
The only poll to have gotten the distinction right, believe it or not, is the one from Fox News. They asked two separate questions about the planned development. First, they asked:
A group of Muslims plans to build a mosque and Islamic cultural center a few blocks from the site of the September 11 terrorist attacks in New York City. Do you think it is appropriate to build a mosque and Islamic center near ground zero, or do you think it would be wrong to do so?
Only 30 percent of respondents said "appropriate", while 64 percent said "wrong" -- consistent with the apparent unpopularity of the mosque in other polls.

But Fox also followed up with this question:
Regardless of whether you think it is appropriate to build a mosque near ground zero, do you think the Muslim group has the right to build a mosque there, or don’t they have that right?
Here, the numbers were nearly reversed: 61 percent of respondents, including 69 percent of independents and 57 percent of Republicans, said the developers had the right to build the mosque; 34 percent said they did not.

Essentially, public opinion on this issue is divided into thirds. About a third of the country thinks that not only do the developers have a right to build the mosque, but that it's a perfectly appropriate thing to do. Another third think that while the development is in poor taste, the developers nevertheless have a right to build it. And the final third think that not only is the development inappropriate, but the developers have no right to build it -- perhaps they think that the government should intervene to stop it in some fashion.

Obama's remarks, while asserting that "Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as anyone else in this country," and that the "principle that people of all faiths are welcome in this country, and will not be treated differently by their government, is essential to who we are," simply reflected the view that the developers had a First Amendment right to proceed with the project -- a view that at least 60 percent of Americans share. True, Obama could have hedged a little bit more, by saying something along the lines of "they have every right to build it, but I hope they will consider another location". On the other hand, it is not as though he said "this is a wonderful thing, and I'm going to make sure to take Sasha and Malia there once it's built." Instead, he acknowledged the sensitivity over the Ground Zero site, calling it "hallowed ground", but couched the controversy in terms of the First Amendment.

So it is not really so clear whether Obama has staked out an unpopular position or not. While it is almost certainly riskier than his remaining mum on the issue, the assertion that the developers have a Constitutional right to proceed with the project is not particularly controversial. Palin and Gingirch will scream and shout, but they may be doing little more than preach to the converted.

EDIT: Sorry for pre-coffee typos.
Edited by Jeff, Aug 14 2010, 05:28 PM.
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Steve Miller
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Bull-Carp
Copper
Aug 14 2010, 04:36 PM
The question is who is supplying the money to build the building?


I don't care.

When does it go out for bid? :excited:
Wag more
Bark less
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Steve Miller
Aug 14 2010, 07:19 PM
Copper
Aug 14 2010, 04:36 PM
The question is who is supplying the money to build the building?


I don't care.

When does it go out for bid? :excited:
Well, they do say America is a whore. :lol2:
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Copper
Aug 14 2010, 04:36 PM
The question is who is supplying the money to build the building?

There seems to be some suspision that it may the folks with whom we are at war.
Dude,

Do you expect the people with whom you are at war to attack a this building if built?

If the people with whom you are at war gives you money to build a monument in one of your major cities that they won't attack, why are you complaining?

It's like you've been given a shield for your city, subsidized by the people with whom you are at war; so be grateful.
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Copper
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Shortstop
Axtremus
Aug 15 2010, 03:46 PM
Copper
Aug 14 2010, 04:36 PM
The question is who is supplying the money to build the building?

There seems to be some suspision that it may the folks with whom we are at war.
Dude,

Do you expect the people with whom you are at war to attack a this building if built?

If the people with whom you are at war gives you money to build a monument in one of your major cities that they won't attack, why are you complaining?

It's like you've been given a shield for your city, subsidized by the people with whom you are at war; so be grateful.

No.

This war isn't about knocking things down.

It's about hearts and minds.

We have clearly already lost a number of each.

The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Phlebas
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Bull-Carp
Building a mosque anywhere near that area is wrong, inappropriate, and an insult.
Why do they need to build this "center" right there?
09-11-2001 was a horrible day for so many people.
Parts of the jet that was deliberately crashed into the south tower hit the building that these people want to build an "islamic center" on.

Thousands of people died horrible deaths that day. From two blocks away, the side of the north tower that I could see looked like an abattoir as a result of the people who fell (I don't say 'jumped', they had no choice. Hold a hot iron against you, and you will get away from the heat as fast as you can).

Yes, they "can" build a mosque there. They have the "right." However, it's infinitely wrong for the to do so.

Obama should have kept his mouth shut on this.

Oh, well. God bless America.
Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML

The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D


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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Building a McDonalds anywhere near that area is wrong, inappropriate, and an insult.
Why do they need to build this "restaurant" right there?
09-11-2001 was a horrible day for so many people.
Parts of the jet that was deliberately crashed into the south tower hit the building that these people want to build a "family entertainment destination" on.

Thousands of people died horrible deaths that day. From two blocks away, the side of the north tower that I could see looked like an abattoir as a result of the people who fell (I don't say 'jumped', they had no choice. Hold a hot iron against you, and you will get away from the heat as fast as you can).

Yes, they "can" build a McDonald's there. They have the "right." However, it's infinitely wrong for the to do so.

Obama should have kept his mouth shut on this.

Oh, well. God bless America.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Copper
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jon-nyc
Aug 15 2010, 05:17 PM

Parts of the jet that was deliberately crashed into the south tower hit the building that these people want to build a "family entertainment destination" on.


In a way it's nice that you blindly support your president.

When you wake up you may want to consider who "these people" are.

My understanding is that they are unknown. I understand your need to support unknown people, but make a note to look into it later when your leader has moved on.

Maybe you can get special treatment at the "family entertainment destination".

The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
jon-nyc
Aug 15 2010, 05:17 PM
Building a McDonalds anywhere near that area is wrong, inappropriate, and an insult.
Why do they need to build this "restaurant" right there?
09-11-2001 was a horrible day for so many people.
Parts of the jet that was deliberately crashed into the south tower hit the building that these people want to build a "family entertainment destination" on.

Thousands of people died horrible deaths that day. From two blocks away, the side of the north tower that I could see looked like an abattoir as a result of the people who fell (I don't say 'jumped', they had no choice. Hold a hot iron against you, and you will get away from the heat as fast as you can).

Yes, they "can" build a McDonald's there. They have the "right." However, it's infinitely wrong for the to do so.

Obama should have kept his mouth shut on this.

Oh, well. God bless America.
U should not drink and post. :lol2:
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
This thread just begs the question.... which came first - stupidity, or liberalism?
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Big John
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Evidently a Greek Orthodox community has been prevented from rebuilding their church that was destroyed on 9/11.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
That's because, unlike the proposed mosque, that church actually was at ground zero. So they've got caught up in the bureaucratic delays associated with the (actual) ground zero site itself. However I thought that they struck a deal to rebuild a block west a couple of years ago (IIRC)

In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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jon-nyc
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Believe it or not, no one in NY, including Bloomberg, has held up St. Nick rebuilding plans because it is a church.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
That's not how the Orthodox see it. I don't have enough info on the process though -- if this is all about symbolism in the political sphere, there does seem to be a case for inconsistency...
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Copper
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Shortstop

There seems to be a hang-up on the precise definition of "Ground-Zero".

Should this be measured in inches, feet, blocks or miles?

It really shouldn't be decided based on allegiance to Mr. Obama, there should be a more impartial source.

Let me suggest the following.

Posted Image

The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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