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Judge rules that "Proposition 8" is unconstitutional; ...breaking news
Topic Started: Aug 4 2010, 12:49 PM (4,090 Views)
Larry
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Rainman
Aug 7 2010, 12:56 PM
Dewey, I keep coming back to one sentence you typed above:

"That public opinion is changing, gradually but steadily, and will, before the passing of probably one more generation, have flipped from the current majority view."

I'm not connecting your sentence to the current topic, but rather the overall perspective of your statement, and how changing "That public opinion is changing" to "That public opinion can be changed" becomes the essence for justifying a cause, any cause.

Simple. Now all we need to do is to determine which causes are for the public good.

hmmm, quickly getting out of my league. . .
Public opinion, as more and more things that were once viewed as unacceptable become acceptable, will *always* change. That doesn't mean that's a good thing.

Twenty years ago the "F" word on TV would not be tolerated. Today you hear it all over the place.

Dewey is describing moral relativity, where given enough time, society will fall apart enough that things that once weren't acceptable will become acceptable. The institution of marriage will eventually crumble, just as the ministry has.



Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Steve Miller
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Mikhailoh
Aug 7 2010, 06:35 PM
Pedophiles are human. Serial killers are human. Bestialists are human. Fascists and Cambodian communists and Sudanese killers are human. Being human establishes exactly nothing.

...that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

It really is that simple.
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Larry
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Steve, exactly where in that quote do you read the part that says one of those unalienable rights is the right for two men to get married?


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Steve Miller
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Larry
Aug 7 2010, 09:00 PM
Steve, exactly where in that quote do you read the part that says one of those unalienable rights is the right for two men to get married?


That would be the "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness part, Larry.

Will there be anything else?
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Larry
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Well, yes.

Their life is not in any jeopardy, is it?

No one is hindering their liberty, are they?

The pursuit of happiness does not mean you can have any f*cking thing you want. If screwing chickens makes someone happy, are you arguing they have a constitutional right to "pursue happiness" by screwing chickens?


"Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" has absolutely nothing to do with the issue of same sex marriage.

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LadyElton
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Nice to know that people view my sexual orientation as a disorder or fetish.
Hilary aka LadyElton
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Rainman
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I recall being at a meeting, where a gay activist (I mean that in a positive sense) was outlining federal legislation regarding civil rights, the 1960's etc.

I commented that empathy was more affective in the long run, than legislative mandates.

She countered by saying she agreed with me, but if society relied on the growth and consequent effects of social empathy for change, black people would still be sitting in the back of the bus. Plessey vs. Ferguson would still be de facto, even though Brown would be de jure.

She had a good point.
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ivorythumper
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Dewey
Aug 7 2010, 02:11 PM
Quote:
 
I am pretty sure you are confusing the protection of rights of the individuals with the protection of the rights of the corporate entity.


No, I'm not confusing either of them, but I am saying that they're inextricably interrelated. If either is abused, the other is equally adversely affected.
I don't understand how that makes any sense whatsoever.

Perhaps you can give another example that has nothing to do with homosexuality or marriage that demonstrates your point.

Then we can talk about the second part.

The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
No, I'm not going to give any more examples or discuss the topic further. I mentioned earlier that I entered this thread not to debate the issue itself, but to point out the lack of validity of one form of arguing about it, which had parallels to other situations. As I said then, I don't really have any interest in discussing this particular issue any further, since we all know where we stand and have been over the issue countless times already. I'm especially not interested in getting into another situation where there are three, four, or more people here all lobbing comments, and occasional insults, at me over the course of several days or a week, with me being expected to give detailed replies to each one pf them, as has happened in the past, and as is beginning to take shape now. I did it before to make sure that my position was heard and understood. Now that's done.

When I changed my beliefs about the role of gays and lesbians, first in the Church and by extension within the larger realm of secular society, it occurred not because I had heard any new arguments, but because I was involved in a detailed study of the scriptures regarding the issue (I had actually set out to solidify my own position against what I saw as a relativist, liberal-leaning drift regarding the issue within my denomination). At the same time, I found myself working and studying with a gay Christian studying for the ministry in real life, who I found to be at least as legitimately called by God to the ministry as I am myself. I was no longer involved in an abstract issue, it became a concrete necessity for me to be able to examine and reconcile these things within my understanding of God and the faith. I needed to question my earlier thoughts, to pray, and study, and ultimately to verify or update them. Through that process, I was changed internally, and I came to see things in a very different light. I believe that this was very much the work of God, working in a deliberate manner to open my eyes to something that I had originally believed, which I thought was being faithful to him, upholding his standards and defending the faith, when in fact it was wrong, a shortsighted misperception of his will, and very hurtful to many of his children.

Frankly, I don't think that anyone will change their opinion about these issues without a similar change of heart. There is no theological or ideological argument that I can offer that will change anyone else's opinion. All I can do is offer someone what my understanding is, and hope that God will use that as part of his working in the person's life as they deal with the issue for themselves. I've done that now, on quite a few occasions and in detail. The rest isn't up to me.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Mikhailoh
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LadyElton
Aug 7 2010, 10:46 PM
Nice to know that people view my sexual orientation as a disorder or fetish.
That is not what was said and you know it. Come down off the cross, honey, someone needs the wood.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
It strikes me that it's just possible that The Gay Marriage Debate is the opiate of the people for Americans at the moment.

The national debt is over a gazillion dollars and people are worrying whether gay people should be able to file for income tax together.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
We'd go after the Brits I suppose, but you guys are underbreeding yourselves out of existence on your own.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Mikhailoh
Aug 8 2010, 04:39 AM
We'd go after the Brits I suppose, but you guys are underbreeding yourselves out of existence on your own.
There's 50 million people in England alone - 1/6 that of the supposedly virile US of A. And this is in only 50,000 square miles - about 1/5 the size of the colony of Texas. If anything you guys are letting the side down a bit. I realise that the American wildife is very tempting, but try and stay focused. A raccoon or possum can't really love you back, you know.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
I suppose ewe would know about that.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Mikhailoh
Aug 8 2010, 05:39 AM
I suppose ewe would know about that.
If it wasn't for the sheep, Wales would now look like Manhattan. If it wasn't for the erotically shaped turnip, Ireland would have sunk.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
:lol2:
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Copper
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Shortstop
Steve Miller
Aug 7 2010, 06:25 PM
Copper
Aug 7 2010, 03:45 PM
I see no civil rights involved here - none at all, not even close.
Gays are human. Gay rights are human rights.

"We hold these truths to be self evident..."

A great example of the point I have been making.

Nothing but whining.

No civil rights involved at all. Just repeating a bunch of nonsense.

It makes me wonder if this constant whining and crying about nothing is the reason they were put in the closet in the first place.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Dewey, if you took my comment as a personal insult or attack I apologize. It wasn't meant that way at all. It was a simple statement of the facts as I see them, a viewpoint I will add that is shared by a large number of people.
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Steve Miller
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Larry
Aug 7 2010, 09:23 PM
"Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" has absolutely nothing to do with the issue of same sex marriage.



That of course, is utter nonsense as it has everything to do with same sex marriage.

But thanks for playing.
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Steve Miller
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...
Edited by Steve Miller, Aug 8 2010, 08:22 AM.
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Steve Miller
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Copper
Aug 8 2010, 06:11 AM
"We hold these truths to be self evident..."

A great example of the point I have been making.

Nothing but whining.

The constitution is nothing but whining? I have never heard this argument before.

It too, is nonsense.

But thanks for playing.
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Copper
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Steve Miller
Aug 8 2010, 08:22 AM

The constitution is nothing but whining? I have never heard this argument before.


The Constitution is more than whining

So is the Declaration of Independence

You using either to whine is simply whining

Your rights are intact same as anyone
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Steve Miller
Aug 8 2010, 08:19 AM
Larry
Aug 7 2010, 09:23 PM
"Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" has absolutely nothing to do with the issue of same sex marriage.



That of course, is utter nonsense as it has everything to do with same sex marriage.

But thanks for playing.
Sorry, but it doesn't. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with same sex marriage.

By your argument, anyone can declare anything they want to be their constitutional right.




But thank YOU for playing....


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Larry
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You must bear in mind Copper, that most liberals don't really understand the Constitution.

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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Dewey
Aug 8 2010, 02:47 AM
No, I'm not going to give any more examples or discuss the topic further. I mentioned earlier that I entered this thread not to debate the issue itself, but to point out the lack of validity of one form of arguing about it, which had parallels to other situations.
OK, Dewey. You point was to me incoherent, but I understand if you don't want to pursue it.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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