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Judge rules that "Proposition 8" is unconstitutional; ...breaking news
Topic Started: Aug 4 2010, 12:49 PM (4,088 Views)
The 89th Key
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Breaking news, from drudgereport.com:

EXCLUSIVE 1:26 PM PT: CA Prop 8 held to be unconstitutional under due process and equal protection. Will be released at 2 PM PT...
Judge strikes down -- IN 138 PAGE RULING -- 'Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California'...

JUDGE: Having considered the trial evidence and the arguments of counsel, the court pursuant to FRCP 52(a) finds that Proposition 8 is unconstitutional and that its enforcement must be enjoined.

'Proposition 8 places the force of law behind stigmas against gays and lesbians'...

More info and link to PDF of decision: http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2010/08/judge_vaughn_walker_hands_vict.html
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
The well meaning really hurt their causes with this stuff.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Eventually, SCOTUS.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Kincaid
Aug 4 2010, 12:57 PM
The well meaning really hurt their causes with this stuff.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the well meaning, and how they hurt their own cause. It could be interpreted a number of different ways.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
What I mean is that the judge has an agenda to support gay marriage. I think her opinion will be overturned by the SCOTUS. It still baffles me that someone can take a concept of marriage that has been around for thousands of years and needed no definition and suddenly try to change the meaning by judicial fiat.

As for damaging the cause, every time a court overturns the will of the people, the peoples' will hardens - and it tends to magnify. Fence sitters suddenly feel wronged and decide to oppose the capricious act of the courts. Opposition stiffens and that, unfortunately, gives rise to other less desirable attitudes and behaviors, including discrimination and violence.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
The people's will hardening describes my journey very well. Thanks for teh clarification!
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
It still baffles me that someone can take a concept of marriage that has been around for thousands of years and needed no definition and suddenly try to change the meaning by judicial fiat.
"Marriage" used to include polygamy too ... would you have complained when its definition got changed to exclude polygamy? ;)

It also used to be possible to arrange marriage for children before they were even born, and to consummate marriage with pre-teen women. Would you have complained when the age of consent and legal age for consummating a marriage got lifted?

How about the change in definition that excludes union between first cousins? Would you have complained about that?

Srsly, civilizations have changed the definitions of "marriage" multiple times, and we are turning out quite well as a species.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
And just exactly how does gay marriage improve the prospects of the species?
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
I saw this happen once in Oregon. I can't remember what law it was but it was on some moral issue. The notoriously liberal court struck it down and so it was tweaked and put on the ballot again (by signatures as the notoriously liberal legislature wouldn't touch it), and again the notoriously liberal court struck it down and again it was put on the ballot. Every time it passed by larger and larger margins. I can't even remember now if this law finally withstood the court or was reaffirmed on appeal, but I know public sentiment went from mostly apathetic to energetically opposed.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
Axtremus
Aug 4 2010, 01:22 PM
...we are turning out quite well as a species.
I don't suscribe to that view.

Maybe I'm just a glass half empty kind of person. I feel America has made great strides in putting aside evils of racism, homophobia and the like, but I think society is on a great slide downhill.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
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... but I think society is on a great slide downhill.
Very sorry to hear that you feel that way.

Is there anything I can do to make you feel better about society?

Would more tax cuts help? :blink:
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Copper
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Shortstop
Axtremus
Aug 4 2010, 01:22 PM
Quote:
 
It still baffles me that someone can take a concept of marriage that has been around for thousands of years and needed no definition and suddenly try to change the meaning by judicial fiat.
"Marriage" used to include polygamy too ... would you have complained when its definition got changed to exclude polygamy? ;)

It also used to be possible to arrange marriage for children before they were even born, and to consummate marriage with pre-teen women. Would you have complained when the age of consent and legal age for consummating a marriage got lifted?

How about the change in definition that excludes union between first cousins? Would you have complained about that?

Srsly, civilizations have changed the definitions of "marriage" multiple times, and we are turning out quite well as a species.

Your point is well taken.

Those were all steps forward.

This is backward.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
This is a step forward. You just failed to see it as such. Give it some time ... almost all will also see this as an obvious step forward.
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Big John
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Senior Carp
People have to think that society is on a great slide downhill so they can think apocalyptically and wave their fingers and blame people for what really amounts to their own shortcomings. It's a story as old as time. Right now, the gays are the reason for this supposed downward slide. Next year it will be someone else. the important thing is that people need to always believe that the slide is continuous and that it can't be stopped because of all the OTHER people that are causing it.





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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
:wave: One note Johnny!
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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Copper
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Shortstop

Yes, people are no darn good.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
I do not see that we're necessarily on a downhill slide. There's good and bad. And I think that the fact that homosexuals can live openly and not be discriminated against is very good, I just don't agree that denying same sex marriage amounts to discrimination.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Kincaid
Aug 4 2010, 01:14 PM
What I mean is that the judge has an agenda to support gay marriage. I think her opinion will be overturned by the SCOTUS. It still baffles me that someone can take a concept of marriage that has been around for thousands of years and needed no definition and suddenly try to change the meaning by judicial fiat.

As for damaging the cause, every time a court overturns the will of the people, the peoples' will hardens - and it tends to magnify. Fence sitters suddenly feel wronged and decide to oppose the capricious act of the courts. Opposition stiffens and that, unfortunately, gives rise to other less desirable attitudes and behaviors, including discrimination and violence.
Very well put.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Big John
Aug 4 2010, 02:16 PM
People have to think that society is on a great slide downhill so they can think apocalyptically and wave their fingers and blame people for what really amounts to their own shortcomings. It's a story as old as time. Right now, the gays are the reason for this supposed downward slide. Next year it will be someone else. the important thing is that people need to always believe that the slide is continuous and that it can't be stopped because of all the OTHER people that are causing it.
Not this time.

This an essential issue of societal and family cohesion. One has to look no further than the American black community to see what a disruption of family can do to a group of people.

As to whether we are in a continual slide downward, I think we are. Just as there were signs the Roman Empire (or any other empire, you pick 'em) was beginning its descent, so does the U.S show multiple signs of a long slide into the crapper.

Pity, as it was the beacon of Freedom for the world...
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
I don't think Kincaid singled out gays for blame. If I interpret him correctly he sees it as just one of many ways in which we are abandoning any semblance of moral standards as a society.

Don't get me wrong. I don't classify homosexuality as a moral wrong. I do condemn a lot of the behavior associated with it as such. It is an unfortunate association for those who live respectable lives with deep, committed relationships.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Personally, I blame those meddling kids. We never behaved immorally when I was young. Leastways, I can't actually remember it happening.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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OperaTenor
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Pisa-Carp
Hot damn! I can now leave my wife and marry my neighbor's dog! You know, slippery slope and all...

BOoooooooowww!


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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
A dog loves a bone. Go for it.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mikhailoh
Aug 4 2010, 03:07 PM
I don't think Kincaid singled out gays for blame. If I interpret him correctly he sees it as just one of many ways in which we are abandoning any semblance of moral standards as a society.
I hope no one thought that. My view on gay marriage is separate from my "downhill slide" comment. I was only responding to Ax's comment on society.

But, while I don't tie the idea of gay marriage to the destruction of the institution of marriage as a whole (as if heteros need help in trashing that), I do see American society as losing its bearings and foundations. It is weakening. If it wasn't for each new generation being more narcissistic and self-absorbed than the last, I think they'd have put a "Generation Me" label on one of them. Families continue to weaken and crumble. Moral standards, integrity and honor all seem to me to be on the decline. I'll own up to being part of that even.

What's strange is that gay marriage would actually be something of a reaffirmation morals and standards (just not ones that I support).
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Kincaid
Aug 4 2010, 04:31 PM
Mikhailoh
Aug 4 2010, 03:07 PM
I don't think Kincaid singled out gays for blame. If I interpret him correctly he sees it as just one of many ways in which we are abandoning any semblance of moral standards as a society.
I hope no one thought that. My view on gay marriage is separate from my "downhill slide" comment. I was only responding to Ax's comment on society.

But, while I don't tie the idea of gay marriage to the destruction of the institution of marriage as a whole (as if heteros need help in trashing that), I do see American society as losing its bearings and foundations. It is weakening. If it wasn't for each new generation being more narcissistic and self-absorbed than the last, I think they'd have put a "Generation Me" label on one of them. Families continue to weaken and crumble. Moral standards, integrity and honor all seem to me to be on the decline. I'll own up to being part of that even.

What's strange is that gay marriage would actually be something of a reaffirmation morals and standards (just not ones that I support).
I reckon more good would be done by a Constitutional amendment banning pants that hang down to the knees and cars with motors that make their suspensions go up and down whilst sitting in a parking lot than can ever be done by banning gay marriage.

While we're at it, how about banning the use of the phrase 'outside the box' unless it is used to describe something that has just been physically removed from a small wooden or cardboard container.

Also, white people wearing bandanas. Talk about freaking undermining society.

Designer stubble would be another good one.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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