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So, do you still believe that the US leads in innovation?
Topic Started: Aug 2 2010, 08:44 AM (613 Views)
1hp
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Fulla-Carp

Not for much longer - the money's moving, and so will the innovative new products.

Investors see Venture Capital funding fading in the US, growing abroad

Follow the money. The IPOs they reference are companies that have already received their funding over the past 5 to 10 years.
There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those that understand binary and................
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Copper
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Shortstop

Elections have consequences.

Quote:
 

Respondents feel the venture industry in the U.S. has suffered from a dearth of initial public offerings and related "unfavorable tax and regulatory policies," according to the NVCA and Deloitte.

The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
India still has massive infrastructure problems to deal with.

China is always one political instability away from taking three steps backward.

Unfavorable "tax and regulatory policies"? Ha, the Clinton era tax and regulatory policies didn't stop them before, did they?

Of course, the US continue to do a pretty good job at not letting the best and brightest Indians and Chinese immigrate.

We'll see. :D
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
For the record, no, I don't believe that. Haven't for awhile.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Axtremus
Aug 2 2010, 08:56 AM


Of course, the US continue to do a pretty good job at not letting the best and brightest Indians and Chinese immigrate.

Good thing for you, huh? :lol2:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Of course we do, and I suspect we will do so for our lifetimes.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Of course we do, and I suspect we will do so for our lifetimes.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/04/how-did-israel-become-start-up-nation/
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
ivorythumper
Aug 2 2010, 09:23 PM
Axtremus
Aug 2 2010, 08:56 AM


Of course, the US continue to do a pretty good job at not letting the best and brightest Indians and Chinese immigrate.

Good thing for you, huh? :lol2:
That's gonna leave a mark...
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Protectionism FTW! :thumb:
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1hp
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Fulla-Carp

Quote:
 
Of course, the US continue to do a pretty good job at not letting the best and brightest Indians and Chinese immigrate.


Not sure what you mean by that. If I go down to Qualcomm, the place is full of Chinese and Indian engineers. Motorola too - just sit in the parking lot and watch. Qualcomm has long stated that they can't find good engineers in the US, and wants the quota of work visas increased. Weird, as Irwin Jacobs has his name on the UCSD engineering building - the department that he basically paid for. Is he suggesting that his money was not well spent as the University is producing sub par engineers. No, I think the issue is the paycheck he has to give a US engineer vs a foreign engineer (who can't easily change companies to a higher paying job unless they are willing to sponsor his visa).

Or US engineers really are stupid, and subsequently the US can't have a hope of leading the world in innovation. Can't have it both ways.

Otoh, many of the "best" Chinese are leaving the US, enticed by their governments to return home and head up government funded research companies. Biotech field is especially seeing this. These are non US citizens who have gone through US universities to PhD level. The universities love them as the receive more cash than they would if the put US students through the same program. One day the bubble will burst and the universities will be left wondering why all the cash has fallen off.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those that understand binary and................
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
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No, I think the issue is the paycheck he has to give a US engineer vs a foreign engineer (who can't easily change companies to a higher paying job unless they are willing to sponsor his visa).
The worker's visa laws, if changed such that foreign workers can freely seek employment with any US employer (within certain skill/training requirements), then the problem you're complaining about wouldn't exist. Free competition would be preserved.

Even without that sort of change, current laws stipulate that foreign workers have to be paid the "prevailing wage" (i.e., "market rate"). Any employer who low-ball the pay of an employee based on his immigration status is actually breaking the law. Though I do believe that arbitrarily restricting a subset of workers from changing employers may pull down the "market rate" as a whole, so I still think the workers visa laws should be changed.

I think it makes sense to couple a "worker's visa" to skill set, to expertise, to specific trainings, to specialties (so a country can import the workers with the specific skills that it needs). But the coupling the visa to "employer" is one step too far into the anti-competition territory.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
1hp
 
Otoh, many of the "best" Chinese are leaving the US, enticed by their governments to return home and head up government funded research companies. Biotech field is especially seeing this. These are non US citizens who have gone through US universities to PhD level. The universities love them as the receive more cash than they would if the put US students through the same program. One day the bubble will burst and the universities will be left wondering why all the cash has fallen off.
Addressing this as a separate issue ...

Yeah, I have no problem with government grants that stipulate that the money cannot be used to train foreign students. No problem with that at all. If we want to use tax payer's money to hire foreign graduate students as research assistants or whatever, fine -- let that be a conscious, explicit decision with cost/analysis benefit studies to back it up; something that shows that if, as a nation, we "invest" so much $$$ into training foreign students, then we're going to get so much $$$ in ROI, and that the ROI would be higher than if we just spend the same money only on US students.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
1hp
 
... US engineers really are stupid, and subsequently the US can't have a hope of leading the world in innovation.
OK, quoting this out of context. Readers new to this thread should read 1hp's post (three posts above) for full context.

The US absorbed many foreign scientists post-WWII, and there have certainly been waves and waves of immigrants to the US before WWII. Can't say that those haven't have an impact on the US' ability to innovate over the last century.

Luck aside, the US have done a lot of things right. The US' generous immigration policies may have been one of them. The question now is: would tighter immigration policies hurt or improve the US' ability to innovate in the future?

Can the US born-and-bred engineers go it alone, or would the country do even better with immigrant engineers?

Piano*Dad made an observation that the Chinese/Korean/Japanese students, while very good at solving problems, are not good at posing problems. I'd heartily agree that the ability to pose problems is half the battle to innovate. But the "solving problem" part is also essential to bring it home. The Asian students routinely excel at international math/science competitions, they are good at solving problems. May be the US engineers who knows how to pose problems can benefit from collaborating with the foreign engineers who may be better at solving them?

I don't know for sure. But at the moment, I'm still leaning towards letting more skilled workers immigrate.
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Copper
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Axtremus
Aug 3 2010, 12:40 PM

The question now is: would tighter immigration policies hurt or improve the US' ability to innovate in the future?

Immigration policy isn't the only factor.

People come here for freedom, and to get away from socialism, tyranny and nationalized healthcare.

So the more we adopt unattractive policies the fewer innovators will make their way here.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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1hp
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Fulla-Carp

Quote:
 

I don't know for sure. But at the moment, I'm still leaning towards letting more skilled workers immigrate.


With the real (hidden) unemployment rate somewhere in the 18% region? The country is awash in skilled workers with no job. Silicon Valley too.



Quote:
 
The US absorbed many foreign scientists post-WWII, and there have certainly been waves and waves of immigrants to the US before WWII. Can't say that those haven't have an impact on the US' ability to innovate over the last century.



Technology is advancing at an ever increasing rate, so let's just address the last 2 or 3 decades. Off the top of your head can you name some non US Bill Gates/Steve Jobs types that are innovating in the US?



There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those that understand binary and................
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Copper
Aug 3 2010, 01:11 PM
People come here for freedom, and to get away from socialism, tyranny and nationalized healthcare.
I came here to get away from American tourists. I thought it was a very innovative solution to a world-wide problem.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
John D'Oh
Aug 3 2010, 04:31 PM
Copper
Aug 3 2010, 01:11 PM
People come here for freedom, and to get away from socialism, tyranny and nationalized healthcare.
I came here to get away from American tourists. I thought it was a very innovative solution to a world-wide problem.
I thought it was to capitalize on our fantabulous dental services. :biggrin:
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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LWpianistin
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HOLY CARP!!!
I don't think the US has lead for years.
And how are you today?
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Aqua Letifer
Aug 3 2010, 04:38 PM
John D'Oh
Aug 3 2010, 04:31 PM
Copper
Aug 3 2010, 01:11 PM
People come here for freedom, and to get away from socialism, tyranny and nationalized healthcare.
I came here to get away from American tourists. I thought it was a very innovative solution to a world-wide problem.
I thought it was to capitalize on our fantabulous dental services. :biggrin:
Ah yes, American dentistry...


Posted Image
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Copper
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LWpianistin
Aug 3 2010, 04:59 PM
I don't think the US has lead for years.

Sure in the mines of Southeast Missouri we have enough lead in the ground to last for many, many years.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
LWpianistin
Aug 3 2010, 04:59 PM
I don't think the US has lead for years.
I think that would be very difficult to support with any data. (and unlike the article's assumption, comparing the first derivative of VC funding with respect to time doesn't provide the answer)
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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jon-nyc
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Oh, and that line in the article about regulation burden is laughable. That certainly didn't come from anyone who ever tried to invest in Brazil or China.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
My belief is that unless China changes it's bureaucratic nature, it will hit a limit past which it can't expand any further. At this point, they're succeeding primarily not because of innovation but because of cheap labour costs and an abundance of manpower - the cheap labour at least can't last forever.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
jon-nyc
Aug 3 2010, 09:56 PM
Oh, and that line in the article about regulation burden is laughable. That certainly didn't come from anyone who ever tried to invest in Brazil or China.
Take the right people to lunch and bring lots of money and Chinese regulation is not that hard to overcome.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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