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The German Volt
Topic Started: Jul 28 2010, 12:22 PM (580 Views)
Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
The Chevy Volt's gas engine is built is Austria by Opel...so it made sense to launch a German version of the Volt:

http://www.opel-ampera.com/english/#/home
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
It figures that Europe would get the more stylish model.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
I'm not sure whether there will be a big market for the Volt over here.

First, the projected prices on the German market are somewhat insane: around 40K€
Second, Diesel cars with high MPG are already very very common here.
Third, electricity is much more expensive than in the US. But then again, so is gas.
Fourth, I haven't heard anyone talk about subsidies for the Volt.

I hope that the Volt will be a success, but I wouldn't bet on Germany as a major market for it.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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Jolly
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Klaus
Jul 28 2010, 12:29 PM
I'm not sure whether there will be a big market for the Volt over here.

First, the projected prices on the German market are somewhat insane: around 40K€
Second, Diesel cars with high MPG are already very very common here.
Third, electricity is much more expensive than in the US. But then again, so is gas.
Fourth, I haven't heard anyone talk about subsidies for the Volt.

I hope that the Volt will be a success, but I wouldn't bet on Germany as a major market for it.
Do Germans lease cars?

The Volt is going to be offered at a very attractive lease price. Perhaps the Opel will get the same program.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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VPG
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Pisa-Carp
Rush was talking about it today. He said it only goes 40 miles before needing recharging. Can this be true? If so not very desirable. But there is a Govt. plan to give the buyer $7500.00 That would help. He said they will be $40,000.00 here.
I'M NOT YELLING.........I'M ITALIAN...........THAT'S HOW WE TALK!


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Ronald Reagan, Inaugural, 1971

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Jolly
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VPG
Jul 28 2010, 01:07 PM
Rush was talking about it today. He said it only goes 40 miles before needing recharging. Can this be true? If so not very desirable. But there is a Govt. plan to give the buyer $7500.00 That would help. He said they will be $40,000.00 here.
Check out the Volt thread:

http://s10.zetaboards.com/The_New_Coffee_Room/topic/7280566/1/?x=20#new

Range is going to be around 600 miles.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Volt hasn't released what the final range will be as of yet - but they have raised it from 350 to 450 as of a few months back. I think 600 is really pushing it - I'm not aware of anyone breaking that barrier yet even in testing.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Jolly
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KlavierBauer
Jul 28 2010, 01:41 PM
Volt hasn't released what the final range will be as of yet - but they have raised it from 350 to 450 as of a few months back. I think 600 is really pushing it - I'm not aware of anyone breaking that barrier yet even in testing.
I could easily be wrong...I'm working from memory...and it ain't what it used to be... :whome:
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mind you, the "hundreds of miles" numbers include burning gas - they're not electric only. Electric only (as I stated in the other thread) is about 40 miles.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
But it is still usable driving range.

The knock on total electric cars has always been the range issue. Drive a Leaf 85 miles to grandma's house.

You. Can't.

Drive a Volt or in this case the European model to grandma's.

No problemo.

That's a big real world difference.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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George K
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Finally
For an automobile, the Volt is ridiculously highly priced. It's not *that* good of a car, from what I've read. Interior, though nice-looking, feels chintzy and cheap. Certainly not like that of a $40K car.

For a breakthrough, the Volt is amazing. It's like a diesel-electric automobile. Good warrantee (100K miles) on the battery, unlimited range (just like a regular car). As Jolly says, you want to go to grandma's.

As the tech becomes more developed, it'll get cheaper.
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- Mik, 6/14/08


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- Klaus, 4/29/18
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Always let someone else pay for the research.

I may actually buy an LCD TV next year.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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George K
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John D'Oh
Jul 28 2010, 06:10 PM
I may actually buy an LCD TV next year.
Back when the dinosaurs walked the earth In 1977, Mrs. George and I got our wedding present from my parents. It was a 19" color TV made by Toshiba. We paid $400 for it at that time. Today, that would be $1400.

We still have it, up in the Cheddarshack. It works fine.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Nissan claims the leaf has 100 mile range Jolly, so yes, that trip to Oma's house is possible.
If we're going to transition to electric by using combustion engines to power generators, why don't we use diesel engines which are 50% more efficient than gas? They're simpler, without an ignition system, they're cleaner by far, produce far more torque (better for powering the generators) - the benefits are vast. Why not put a 100 mpg diesel engine (Opel won the 24 hour Le Mans in this class last year with a car which got on average 124mpg) in the Leaf or the Volt, and really use less fossil fuel? Because Americans don't *like* diesel, even if it's cleaner and makes more sense. We're not looking for the best solution - we're looking for the most sellable one, and that right now is *green*. Nobody wants a diesel they can power with peanut oil, hemp oil, or soy-based oil. They want "electric!" but they want to power it with gas. Silly.
On that note, why is the Audi A3 the only thing being imported right now in diesel? Why not the A4, or the all aluminum BMW diesel engine, or the Toyota Helix? I'd sell my Tacoma in a heartbeat for the 35 mpg diesel version (the Helix) - but I can't get it here.

</tangent>
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
I drove a 45mpg Rabbit in 1982.

So much for progress....
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
KlavierBauer
Jul 28 2010, 06:30 PM
Nobody wants a diesel they can power with peanut oil, hemp oil, or soy-based oil. They want "electric!" but they want to power it with gas. Silly.
I guess that, in comparison with Europe, you have to consider that a liter of Diesel costs 10-20% less than regular gas over here (because the taxes on Diesel are lower), and that gas is in general much more expensive. Taken together, this means that we have a much bigger incentive to buy Diesel cars. But it is also true that Diesel has a higher reputation here. Nowadays most people even prefer Diesel engines not only because of the smaller costs but also because of higher torque and better reliability.

One of my brothers drives a Diesel and he drives it with vegetable oil. A liter of vegetable oil in the supermarket costs less than a litre of Diesel.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Klaus
Jul 29 2010, 06:15 AM
KlavierBauer
Jul 28 2010, 06:30 PM
Nobody wants a diesel they can power with peanut oil, hemp oil, or soy-based oil. They want "electric!" but they want to power it with gas. Silly.
I guess that, in comparison with Europe, you have to consider that a liter of Diesel costs 10-20% less than regular gas over here (because the taxes on Diesel are lower), and that gas is in general much more expensive. Taken together, this means that we have a much bigger incentive to buy Diesel cars. But it is also true that Diesel has a higher reputation here. Nowadays most people even prefer Diesel engines not only because of the smaller costs but also because of higher torque and better reliability.

One of my brothers drives a Diesel and he drives it with vegetable oil. A liter of vegetable oil in the supermarket costs less than a litre of Diesel.
What does he do in cold weather?

Vegetable oil doesn't seem like it would combust well without some help.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Jolly
Jul 29 2010, 07:03 AM
What does he do in cold weather?

Vegetable oil doesn't seem like it would combust well without some help.
True, you can't put vegetable oil in any Diesel engine - this only works for very old Diesel designs but not for modern fuel-efficient engines. A few small modifications are necessary, which are by now pretty standard and offered by many garages. The most significant of these modifications is the addition of an electric heating which warms up the oil to around 140F before it reaches the engine.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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The 89th Key
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Kincaid
Jul 28 2010, 12:28 PM
It figures that Europe would get the more stylish model.
While I think the model on that site looks great, it'll get scaled back to a more regular-looking car as it gets closer to the sales room floor. Just like our version of the Volt went from this to that:

Posted Image

to

Posted Image
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Actually - as somewhat of an authority on the subject - you CAN put vegetable oil in any diesel engine.
The diesel engine was originally designed to run on peanut oil, and does fine with various organic oils.
The problem becomes the modern turbo diesel engine which requires more fuel at higher pressure. The Volkwagen TDI for example has about an 18:1 compression ratio - this means that the fuel pump is working pretty hard to push thicker fuel through the lines and into the cylinder head. The problem with "waste" oil is that it often has larger particulate matter in it - but filtration takes care of this quite simply. I ran B20 biodiesel all the time, even in below freezing weather. That's 20% soy-based biodiesel, and 80% petro-diesel. I know guys who run B-100 (100% bio), and some who claim to be able to do it year round here, but that's not without adding additives. Still - for anyone in a place that doesn't freeze frequently, veggie, soy, or waste oil make perfect sense. My good friend here collects waste deep-fryer oil from a local asian restaurant - something they routinely pay to dispose of - and he takes it home and filters it a few times through a 10 micron filter. ON the other end he has a large vat of clean veggie oil ready to go. It smells like french fries when he drives by. He runs this in a second tank with a separate fuel line. So even in cold weather he can simply start the car with normal petrol-diesel, and then once the car is warm, switch (via a small thumb switch) over to the second tank/fuel line. He pays about $.30/gallon to fuel his car.
The fact that diesel costs so much more than gas in the U.S. is ridiculous. It's the same product, only several stages earlier in the refinement process. It should cost *less*.
Vegetable oil combusts just fine in a diesel engine as long as it isn't gelled due to temperature. This is because a diesel engine uses no ignition system and relies simply on extremely high compression to combust the fuel. For this reason it can burn a number of things that wouldn't normally seem to be very "volatile."
Again - it is the more modern, higher performance diesel engines (common rail, direct injection, or other turbo diesel types) where thicker particulate matter becomes more of an issue. Still though - even among the people regularly running straight canola oil through their Dodge trucks and TDIs, the numbers of blown fuel pumps are extremely low. There are discussions regularly on tdiclub.com as to whether there is even a higher incident of blown fuel pumps among this small group of people than there is among the general population of tdi owners. In other words, it looks like the voiding of a car's warranty for running veggie oil or any biodiesel (that's straight from VWoA) is hogwash, and simply part of the anti-diesel smear campaign.
People don't like diesel because it's particulate matter is heavier and stays close to ground. This is good, because it means that diesels are actually emitting quite little into the atmosphere, contributing very little to any anthropogenic climate change. It's bad though, because it means that this particulate matter mixes with water vapor and dirt to become "smog." This is why zero (new) diesels are sold in California. The one issue with petrol diesel are the high NOX emissions - still much better than gas engine's emissions, but an issue nonetheless. This is one of the big pluses of biodiesel, as it emits very little at all.
I'd love nothing more than to have the Toyota Helix in this country, or the Audi A4 diesel. I'd own either in a heartbeat. I'd also demand that diesel fuel prices be more inline with their cost of sale relative to gas.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
The old diesel came off several stages earlier in the cracking tower. The new, low-sulfur diesel mandated by the Feds, not so much...it's closer to #1 diesel (which is kerosene).
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Yes, it is basically kerosene - which is still lower in the vat than the refined gasoline sitting at the top.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
KB -

1. Are the new 2010 diesels cleaner on sulfur then gas vehicles?

2. Do you know what the particulates are that the diesel emits, and why?

Unfortunately, as much as diesel would seem to be the best interim step towards all electric vehicles, I understand almost all of our refineries would have to be retrofitted (at huge expense) to the European way of hydrocarbon cracking, in order to produce the amount of diesel needed.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
We would definitely need attention to the refinery infrastructure.
Or allow the private sector the freedom it needs to do this on its own, including incentives to produce biodiesel.
I can produce biodiesel in my garage with waste veggie oil and some lye.

As of 2006 we began transitioning to ULSD (Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel) and now we're totally transitioned for all normal uses. I believe over-the-road trucks, boats, and locomotives are still exempt until 2012, but everyone filling diesel at the pump is putting in ULSD now.
Sulphur is the main source of particulate matter in a diesel engine, so burning either biodiesel or clean diesel (ULSD) vastly reduces the amount of particulate matter coming out.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
Regarding diesel, I think genetic tinkering with microbes or bacteria may eventually provide an unlimited supply. If it does, we may never even get to electric cars because the power, range and portability of diesel will probably always trump electrics. However, I don't think we'll ever see biodiesel from anything that is grown and harvested - the world simply doesn't have the arable land.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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