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$41k; The price has been set.
Topic Started: Jul 28 2010, 12:09 PM (1,166 Views)
Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Incidentally, how do yo guys feel about the federal government subsidizing the private citizen's purchase of a motor vehicle for private use?
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Axtremus
Jul 28 2010, 05:50 PM
On a carbon footprint basis ... how much CO2 is generated to power the Volt per mile, how much CO2 is generated to power the Prius/Civic Hybrid per mile? :blink:
First 40 miles? 0.

Next, however many hundred? About what a standard Honda Civic would produce, I assume.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Jolly
Jul 28 2010, 05:53 PM
Axtremus
Jul 28 2010, 05:50 PM
On a carbon footprint basis ... how much CO2 is generated to power the Volt per mile, how much CO2 is generated to power the Prius/Civic Hybrid per mile? :blink:
First 40 miles? 0.
Wrong ... there is a kilowatt-hours value for the first 40 miles that has a non-zero carbon footprint, even though the CO2 is generated by the power plant.
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Improviso
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HOLY CARP!!!
Oh Brother... :doh:

Can anyone guess where I'd like to plant my carbon footprint? :shifty:
Identifying narcissists isn't difficult. Just look for the person who is constantly fishing for compliments
and admiration while breaking down over even the slightest bit of criticism.

We have the freedom to choose our actions, but we do not get to choose our consequences.
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Copper
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Shortstop

Forget MPG, the new Nissan Leaf ads talk about miles per dollar - since they don't use any gas.

And don't forget to add $45 per gallon for the new taxes to finance universal health care.

The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Axtremus
Jul 28 2010, 05:56 PM
Jolly
Jul 28 2010, 05:53 PM
Axtremus
Jul 28 2010, 05:50 PM
On a carbon footprint basis ... how much CO2 is generated to power the Volt per mile, how much CO2 is generated to power the Prius/Civic Hybrid per mile? :blink:
First 40 miles? 0.
Wrong ... there is a kilowatt-hours value for the first 40 miles that has a non-zero carbon footprint, even though the CO2 is generated by the power plant.
Nuclear plants generate CO2?
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Ax has a good point - electricity isn't pollution free. You just aren't as aware of it since all the pollution is being localised at the powerplant. This allows people to feel smug, secure in the knowledge that they're not creating any pollution, despite the fact that they're wrong.

Obviously, the average Volt driver has probably never been within 50 miles of anything even vaguely industrial in his life, so he never sees it.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Copper
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Shortstop

Oh and once all this happens and the CO2 disappears I'll have to run an old fashion internal combustion in my back yard to create enough CO2 to feed my lawn and trees.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Copper
Jul 28 2010, 06:03 PM
Oh and once all this happens and the CO2 disappears I'll have to run an old fashion internal combustion in my back yard to create enough CO2 to feed my lawn and trees.
As long as we have Washington, we'll have an abundance of excess C02, as well as other greenhouse gases.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Jolly
Jul 28 2010, 06:02 PM
Axtremus
Jul 28 2010, 05:56 PM
Jolly
Jul 28 2010, 05:53 PM
Axtremus
Jul 28 2010, 05:50 PM
On a carbon footprint basis ... how much CO2 is generated to power the Volt per mile, how much CO2 is generated to power the Prius/Civic Hybrid per mile? :blink:
First 40 miles? 0.
Wrong ... there is a kilowatt-hours value for the first 40 miles that has a non-zero carbon footprint, even though the CO2 is generated by the power plant.
Nuclear plants generate CO2?
Sucking power away form nuclear (or any other non-CO2 producing) plants to power your Volt means other coal (or any other CO2 producing) plants need to generate more power to make up the difference. So, yes, there is a carbon footprint value for any energy sourced from the public utility grid.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Axtremus
Jul 28 2010, 06:10 PM
Jolly
Jul 28 2010, 06:02 PM
Axtremus
Jul 28 2010, 05:56 PM
Jolly
Jul 28 2010, 05:53 PM
Axtremus
Jul 28 2010, 05:50 PM
On a carbon footprint basis ... how much CO2 is generated to power the Volt per mile, how much CO2 is generated to power the Prius/Civic Hybrid per mile? :blink:
First 40 miles? 0.
Wrong ... there is a kilowatt-hours value for the first 40 miles that has a non-zero carbon footprint, even though the CO2 is generated by the power plant.
Nuclear plants generate CO2?
Sucking power away form nuclear (or any other non-CO2 producing) plants to power your Volt means other coal (or any other CO2 producing) plants need to generate more power to make up the difference. So, yes, there is a carbon footprint value for any energy sourced from the public utility grid.
In other words, no, a nuke does not produce CO2 as a by-product of its power generating process.

In the 1970's, the U.S. goal was to have 1000 functioning nuclear power plants by the early part of the next century. And then the tree-huggers got in the way. If we wish to eliminate those nasty carbon footprints, maybe we need to accelerate the construction of nuke plants.

Which will make this generation of tree-huggers happy.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
That would be a nice figure to know - a true cost figure though, not just CO2 emitted by one vs. the other. Also figuring emissions for the power sources, producers of that power, producers of the infrastructure for that industry, etc..

There's also a value associated with convenience - a harder value to figure. How many people can have a car that drives 30-40 miles before needing hours of charging? Some I'm sure, but not too many. And who living in a city (assuming urban folks are the ones who will find value with the volt) will be willing to spend $40k to purchase one? Most urban dwellers I know who don't travel much by automobile simply don't own a vehicle because of the money they save.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Qaanaaq-Liaaq
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Senior Carp
Tip of the day: If you think that sales of electric cars will take off in a big way, then buy stock in companies that make electrical extension cords and outlets.

Everything will be fine for people who have a private garage. They can easily plug in a cord to their electric car and recharge the battery. But lots of people don't have a garage and have to park their car on the street or in a drive way. An extension cord running from their house to their car is not going to be convienent. Also, people who park their car in open bay condiminium garages won't have easy access to electrical outlets either. Usually there aren't enough of them.

I can see it being a field day for electricians. They're going to be fielding lots of calls to install new outlets in garages just for electric cars.

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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
KlavierBauer
Jul 28 2010, 06:16 PM
That would be a nice figure to know - a true cost figure though, not just CO2 emitted by one vs. the other. Also figuring emissions for the power sources, producers of that power, producers of the infrastructure for that industry, etc..

There's also a value associated with convenience - a harder value to figure. How many people can have a car that drives 30-40 miles before needing hours of charging? Some I'm sure, but not too many. And who living in a city (assuming urban folks are the ones who will find value with the volt) will be willing to spend $40k to purchase one? Most urban dwellers I know who don't travel much by automobile simply don't own a vehicle because of the money they save.
My commute is almost 30 miles, one-way.

While I'm not going to rush out and buy a Volt, even with $7500 off of the $41K sticker, George has a point about production rendering cheaper technology....what if a Volt cost $25K?

That's a whole new ball of wax...
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
$25k - like the Leaf which goes 100 miles and has more room inside? Now you're talkin! :)

My commute is about 35 miles each way - I'd need to charge my car at work - which would only work for awhile before the company begins making employees pay to charge their cars at work.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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George K
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Finally
Access (or an alternative) is everything. Who wants to travel to Oma's (or work) worrying about whether they're going to run out of 'lectricity?

No one.

The Volt eliminates that fear - you can gas up, like a car, and go for another 300 miles.

In my condo's garage, there's conduit exposed for adding an outlet for every parking space. It would cost money to install, and it would cost to allocate the electricity to every individual spot. But, if it were cost-effective, and if the car were cheaper (and not as cheap), I'd do it.
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"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
I agree that it can be a wonderful technology. As I mentioned in the last thread I'd rather see a diesel engine powering the generator, and I'd like to see the lion's share of the driving handled by electricity instead of mostly gas, with a little electric (and billing it as an electric car).
I'm hopeful for electric cars. I think it's the future. I think inside of 30 years we will have fusion reactors powering our cars. Forget hydrogen, it's a joke - but electricity has a real chance to work, especially as we improve circuit board construction with new diamond technology, and electrical efficiency with superconductive materials like argon (blue) diamonds.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Axtremus
Jul 28 2010, 05:52 PM
Incidentally, how do yo guys feel about the federal government subsidizing the private citizen's purchase of a motor vehicle for private use?
*bump*
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Axtremus
Jul 29 2010, 04:31 AM
Axtremus
Jul 28 2010, 05:52 PM
Incidentally, how do yo guys feel about the federal government subsidizing the private citizen's purchase of a motor vehicle for private use?
*bump*
One could justify this by the argument that the oil and CO2 emissions that are saved by this car create a lower long-term cost for the society than conventional cars. However, it is very hard to measure such costs with any accuracy.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
KlavierBauer
Jul 28 2010, 06:53 PM
I agree that it can be a wonderful technology. As I mentioned in the last thread I'd rather see a diesel engine powering the generator, and I'd like to see the lion's share of the driving handled by electricity instead of mostly gas, with a little electric (and billing it as an electric car).
I'm hopeful for electric cars. I think it's the future. I think inside of 30 years we will have fusion reactors powering our cars. Forget hydrogen, it's a joke - but electricity has a real chance to work, especially as we improve circuit board construction with new diamond technology, and electrical efficiency with superconductive materials like argon (blue) diamonds.
Oh, I think you're right about diesel technology. The new generation of diesels currently being used in Europe offer much better fuel mileage than their gas competitors.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Axtremus
Jul 29 2010, 04:31 AM
Axtremus
Jul 28 2010, 05:52 PM
Incidentally, how do yo guys feel about the federal government subsidizing the private citizen's purchase of a motor vehicle for private use?
*bump*
The flip side of that argument is how do you feel about the government raising fuel taxes, in order to force people to drive more fuel efficient vehicles?
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Simple: I'm FOR higher fuel taxes.

Now how do you feel about the federal government subsidizing the private citizen's purchase of a motor vehicle for private use?
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Axtremus
Jul 29 2010, 05:45 AM
Simple: I'm FOR higher fuel taxes.

Now how do you feel about the federal government subsidizing the private citizen's purchase of a motor vehicle for private use?
I'm agin' it.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
In general I'm not in favor of the federal government subsidizing any private industry. I'm sure there are a few exceptions to that - but in general I am for allowing free markets to decide what is purchased and by whom.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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George K
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Finally
Oh my...
G.M.’s Electric Lemon

GENERAL MOTORS introduced America to the Chevrolet Volt at the 2007 Detroit Auto Show as a low-slung concept car that would someday be the future of motorized transportation. It would go 40 miles on battery power alone, promised G.M., after which it would create its own electricity with a gas engine. Three and a half years — and one government-assisted bankruptcy later — G.M. is bringing a Volt to market that makes good on those two promises. The problem is, well, everything else.

For starters, G.M.’s vision turned into a car that costs $41,000 before relevant tax breaks ... but after billions of dollars of government loans and grants for the Volt’s development and production. And instead of the sleek coupe of 2007, it looks suspiciously similar to a Toyota Prius. It also requires premium gasoline, seats only four people (the battery runs down the center of the car, preventing a rear bench) and has less head and leg room than the $17,000 Chevrolet Cruze, which is more or less the non-electric version of the Volt.

In short, the Volt appears to be exactly the kind of green-at-all-costs car that some opponents of the bailout feared the government might order G.M. to build. Unfortunately for this theory, G.M. was already committed to the Volt when it entered bankruptcy. And though President Obama’s task force reported in 2009 that the Volt “will likely be too expensive to be commercially successful in the short term,” it didn’t cancel the project.

Nor did the government or G.M. decide to sell the Volt at a loss, which, paradoxically, might have been the best hope for making it profitable. Consider the Prius. Back in 1997, Toyota began selling the high-tech, first-of-its-kind car in Japan for about $17,000, even though each model cost $32,000 to build.

By taking a loss on the first several years of Prius production, Toyota was able to hold its price steady, and then sell the gas-sippers in huge numbers when oil prices soared. Today a Prius costs roughly the same in inflation-adjusted dollars as those 1997 models did, and it has become the best-selling Toyota in the United States after the evergreen Camry and Corolla.

Instead of following Toyota’s model, G.M. decided to make the Volt more affordable by offering a $350-a-month lease over 36 months. But that offer allows only 12,000 miles per year, or about 33 miles per day. Assuming you charged your Volt every evening, giving you 40 miles of battery power, and wanted to keep below the mileage limit, you would rarely use its expensive range-extending gas engine. No wonder the Volt’s main competition, the Nissan Leaf, forgoes the additional combustion engine — and ends up costing $8,000 less as a result.

In the industry, some suspect that G.M. and the Obama administration decided against selling the Volt at a loss because they want the company to appear profitable before its long-awaited initial stock offering, which is likely to take place next month. For taxpayers, that approach might have made sense if the government planned on selling its entire 61 percent stake in G.M. But the administration has said it will sell only enough equity in the public offering to relinquish its controlling stake in G.M. Thus the government will remain exposed to the company’s (and the Volt’s) long-term fate.

So the future of General Motors (and the $50 billion taxpayer investment in it) now depends on a vehicle that costs $41,000 but offers the performance and interior space of a $15,000 economy car. The company is moving forward on a second generation of Volts aimed at eliminating the initial model’s considerable shortcomings. (In truth, the first-generation Volt was as good as written off inside G.M., which decided to cut its 2011 production volume to a mere 10,000 units rather than the initial plan for 60,000.) Yet G.M. seemingly has no plan for turning its low-volume “eco-flagship” into a mass-market icon like the Prius.

Quantifying just how much taxpayer money will have been wasted on the hastily developed Volt is no easy feat. Start with the $50 billion bailout (without which none of this would have been necessary), add $240 million in Energy Department grants doled out to G.M. last summer, $150 million in federal money to the Volt’s Korean battery supplier, up to $1.5 billion in tax breaks for purchasers and other consumer incentives, and some significant portion of the $14 billion loan G.M. got in 2008 for “retooling” its plants, and you’ve got some idea of how much taxpayer cash is built into every Volt.

In the end, making the bailout work — whatever the cost — is the only good reason for buying a Volt. The car is not just an environmental hair shirt (a charge leveled at the Prius early in its existence), it is an act of political self-denial as well.

If G.M. were honest, it would market the car as a personal donation for, and vote of confidence in, the auto bailout. Unfortunately, that’s not the kind of cross-branding that will make the Volt a runaway success.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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