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Fvck you, Mr. President
Topic Started: Jul 27 2010, 03:09 PM (1,764 Views)
KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
And yet suspected wife beaters and aggressive drunks are allowed to buy handguns.

That isn't entirely accurate John. To own a handgun in many states you have to pass a background check and not have a drug/alcohol problem. Granted, it's virtually impossible to enforce the substance abuse part - but from a legal standpoint, you aren't "allowed" to purchase a handgun under the conditions you mentioned above - at least not in the great state of Colorado (and are laws are among the looser laws).
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
KlavierBauer
Jul 29 2010, 08:24 AM
Quote:
 
And yet suspected wife beaters and aggressive drunks are allowed to buy handguns.

That isn't entirely accurate John. To own a handgun in many states you have to pass a background check and not have a drug/alcohol problem. Granted, it's virtually impossible to enforce the substance abuse part - but from a legal standpoint, you aren't "allowed" to purchase a handgun under the conditions you mentioned above - at least not in the great state of Colorado (and are laws are among the looser laws).
I agree it varies - however I think it's true to say that some of the people who would be most vehement in arguing that there should be no homosexual scoutmasters would also be the most vehement in arguing for restriction-free gun ownership. There is a certain level of irony here.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
I'm not sure how that qualifies as irony.
Perhaps you can tell me which usage of irony you're referring to:
The Three Most Common Uses Of Irony
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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JBryan
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I am the grey one
When I had my substance abuse problem I had to get my guns on the street. it was actually much easier.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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John D'Oh
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KlavierBauer
Jul 29 2010, 08:58 AM
I'm not sure how that qualifies as irony.
Perhaps you can tell me which usage of irony you're referring to:
The Three Most Common Uses Of Irony
It's situational irony - type 2. The people who respond in one way to one situation, respond in completely the opposite way to an analagous situation. Your response was type 1.

I'm English - if there's one thing we do well, it's irony. You can't see it, but my left eyebrow is currently raised very slightly.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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John D'Oh
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JBryan
Jul 29 2010, 09:04 AM
When I had my substance abuse problem I had to get my guns on the street. it was actually much easier.
More irony!


(The other thing the English do very well is condescension)
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Well, your'e good at thinking that your comments are condescending. Whether or not they really are I'm not sure.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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John D'Oh
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The best kind of condescension is when the foreigner doesn't even spot it. I did spot the attempt at diverting the conversation with a debate about whether it was irony, however this did not work. I hesitate to engage in a debate about whether I'm being genuinely condescending.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
John D'Oh
Jul 29 2010, 09:13 AM
KlavierBauer
Jul 29 2010, 08:58 AM
I'm not sure how that qualifies as irony.
Perhaps you can tell me which usage of irony you're referring to:
The Three Most Common Uses Of Irony
It's situational irony - type 2. The people who respond in one way to one situation, respond in completely the opposite way to an analagous situation. Your response was type 1.

I'm English - if there's one thing we do well, it's irony. You can't see it, but my left eyebrow is currently raised very slightly.
I see no analogy.

You're trying to make the argument that if a gun is available, it will be used in the commission of a crime, therefore it is best to ban all guns.

A better analogy when comparing your gun argument to the gay scoutmaster argument, would be if the gun belonged to and was wielded by FreeRider's bipolar au paire.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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John D'Oh
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Jolly
Jul 29 2010, 09:48 AM
You're trying to make the argument that if a gun is available, it will be used in the commission of a crime, therefore it is best to ban all guns.
No, I'm asking whether guns should be sold to suspected alcoholics. They aren't guilty of a crime, however it might be claimed that they are at higher risk of shooting people since alcoholics undoubtedly commit more gun crime than teetotallers. The claim is being made that homosexuals are more likely to commit child abuse and therefore should not be scoutmasters.

In addition, I'm not saying that we should ban all guns at all. I'm pointing out that one group who want no gay scoutmasters at all also tend to belong to the group that wants zero gun control. I expressed no opinion on gun ownership.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
John D'Oh
Jul 29 2010, 09:54 AM
Jolly
Jul 29 2010, 09:48 AM
You're trying to make the argument that if a gun is available, it will be used in the commission of a crime, therefore it is best to ban all guns.
No, I'm asking whether guns should be sold to suspected alcoholics. They aren't guilty of a crime, however it might be claimed that they are at higher risk of shooting people since alcoholics undoubtedly commit more gun crime than teetotallers. The claim is being made that homosexuals are more likely to commit child abuse and therefore should not be scoutmasters.

In addition, I'm not saying that we should ban all guns at all. I'm pointing out that one group who want no gay scoutmasters at all also tend to belong to the group that wants zero gun control. I expressed no opinion on gun ownership.
Nobody on this board has ever advocated a total absence of gun control.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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John D'Oh
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I think we might be in danger of getting diverted from the point I was making by worrying overly about minutiae. Those who tend to advocate tighter controls on the personal habits of scoutmasters also tend to advocate less control over firearms.

You know, back home, we always used to say that one of the big differences about America was irony, or rather the lack of it in everyday conversation. This prejudice was somewhat exacerbated by Ms. Alanis Morrisette and the non-ironic black fly in her Chardonnay - the ironic thing in her case, of course, being the fact that she was Canadian.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
But your'e talking about two different entities in direct opposition to one another. On one side, we're talking about whether or not a private entity has the right to make up its own rules, and on the other side you're making an analogy with a piece of legislation.
Of course the group who wants more rights for private entities also wants fewer rules from government. Thats not ironic at all - back to my original point which I tried to make lightly at first.
Edited by KlavierBauer, Jul 29 2010, 10:21 AM.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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John D'Oh
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KlavierBauer
Jul 29 2010, 10:20 AM
Except me.
Yes, but you're German. If there's two things the Germans love it's men in short pants and silly clothes combined with powerful weaponry.

(Sorry :D )
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
That's ok - I already edited that post seeing that you got in before me and the "except me" didn't look as clever not being directly beneath Jolly's post. Oh well - you've captured it for posterity sake anyway.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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John D'Oh
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KlavierBauer
Jul 29 2010, 10:20 AM
Of course the group who wants more rights for private entities also wants fewer rules from government. Thats not ironic at all - back to my original point which I tried to make lightly at first.
Oh no you don't.

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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
That's a fair response - you might as well call me a racist too.

Anything but address the point.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
John D'Oh
Jul 29 2010, 09:54 AM
Jolly
Jul 29 2010, 09:48 AM
You're trying to make the argument that if a gun is available, it will be used in the commission of a crime, therefore it is best to ban all guns.
No, I'm asking whether guns should be sold to suspected alcoholics. They aren't guilty of a crime, however it might be claimed that they are at higher risk of shooting people since alcoholics undoubtedly commit more gun crime than teetotallers. The claim is being made that homosexuals are more likely to commit child abuse and therefore should not be scoutmasters.

In addition, I'm not saying that we should ban all guns at all. I'm pointing out that one group who want no gay scoutmasters at all also tend to belong to the group that wants zero gun control. I expressed no opinion on gun ownership.
No one has said homosexuals are more likely to commit child abuse. What has been said, and it applies equally to heterosexual situations, is that you don't put adolescents into situations with adult leadership where there is inherent sexual tension which could lead to abuse.

But if you want to take up Kenny's mantle and beat the drum of homophoboia and bigotry, go ahead. Nobody's buying it from you either.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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John D'Oh
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KlavierBauer
Jul 29 2010, 10:36 AM
That's a fair response - you might as well call me a racist too.

Anything but address the point.
My opinion is that there's clear irony for the reasons I've already detailed. The two points you outlined are not ironic. As is often the case in this type of situation, there is more than one way to look at it. We can either go round and round in circles ad nauseam, or agree to disagree.

My vote is for the ad nauseam.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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John D'Oh
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Mikhailoh
Jul 29 2010, 10:43 AM
No one has said homosexuals are more likely to commit child abuse.
Nobody in this thread, or nobody on this board? I'm pretty sure I've seen it said here before now.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
If you can find it within the context of the Boy Scouts, well then have at it. That's what we're discussing.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
I thought I made a clear argument as to why the analogy you pointed out wasn't analogous. I understand that you think it is, and hence my rebuttal. You can simply not accept it if you wish, but you never responded to it except with a picture of the Office Space clan getting ready to beat a dead horse.
That to me says a) that you choose not to respond to the argument I made, and b) that you in fact don't wish to go on ad nauseam, in fact you'd opt for the agree to disagree stance.
I'm totally fine with that.
Just understand that every time I see you make a gun analogy that isn't fair, I'm going to call you on it. As much as you say you really don't care about guns, you seem to pull a fair number of discussions into the gun debate that have no place being there.
I'm ok to disagree on this - I'm not of the opinion that all should agree with me. I'm also of the opinion that I have as much right as anyone else to voice my opinion in a respectful way, so anytime I see a statistic or claim that is flat out wrong, I'm going to weigh in on it - please don't ever take that personally.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
Copper
Jul 29 2010, 06:54 AM
As a group gays are a pretty in-your-face bunch.
Eh, I'd have to say this is way to much of a generalization. I actually think the bulk of gays live lives of quiet desperation, much like humanity as a whole.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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John D'Oh
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Mikhailoh
Jul 29 2010, 10:50 AM
If you can find it within the context of the Boy Scouts, well then have at it. That's what we're discussing.
It doesn't have to be in the context of the boy scouts, that's just silly. If someobody said gay priests or gay baby-sitters are more likely to abuse children, clearly there's a parallel.

And no, I'm not going to search. However, I'm pretty sure I've seen it said.
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Kincaid: I'd tend to agree with you.
In Copper's defense, as with extreme Liberals and Conservatives - the vocal minority often taint the whole bunch with just how "in your face" they are.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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