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| Who said atheism wasn't a religion???? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 18 2010, 09:39 AM (1,494 Views) | |
| John D'Oh | Jul 20 2010, 03:48 PM Post #51 |
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MAMIL
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I'm talking hypothetically. Some days I'm convinced there's no god, some days I'm a bit unsure. I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter what I believe. Only a lunatic would believe his views are important in the grand scheme of things. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| Renauda | Jul 20 2010, 05:17 PM Post #52 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I agree although apparently there's lot's of lunatics out there. |
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| KlavierBauer | Jul 20 2010, 06:03 PM Post #53 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I would agree with you John - except like I said, most atheists I've met have been ful of emotion, rather than just dismissing organized religion as simply "silly." Also - usually if I put my own opinions and beliefs aside and listen to their description of the God they don't believe in, I find that neither do I. Where I usually find them the most passionate is in their disagreement with the organization, not with the idea of deity, hence my original point. Sorry if "hate" was too strong a word. |
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"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
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| John D'Oh | Jul 20 2010, 06:22 PM Post #54 |
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MAMIL
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Maybe there's lots of atheists you don't hear about, simply because they don't bother telling you they're atheists. Christians sometimes complain that they're unfairly described as a bunch of whack-jobs since it's normally the whack-jobs who make all the noise. Jerry Falwell was always going to make a lot more useless noise about gay teletubbies than the Church of England vicar with the dodgy teeth and bicycle clips carefully tending his flock in Dunny-on-the-Wold - primarily because he was either mad, or an attention seeking knobhead, or possibly both. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| KlavierBauer | Jul 20 2010, 06:39 PM Post #55 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Fair point for sure. I still don't believe in atheism.
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"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
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| Axtremus | Jul 21 2010, 02:31 AM Post #56 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I sort of recall having an argument of sort with someone here (might have been ivorythumper) about whether there can be a religion without a god, or rather, whether a believe without any god (or with more than one god, for that matter) can be a religion at all. Classifying atheism a religion seems an implicit acknowledgement that, indeed, a believe without any god can be a religion. |
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| AndyD | Jul 21 2010, 04:51 AM Post #57 |
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Senior Carp
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Faith was not enough for me and I could not accept any of the major religious texts as written. I spent years searching for a coherent understanding of it all, and wanting evidence of some kind. Understanding the doubts agnostics & atheists have, I expect no less from them. Bueller My personal life path was pretty much the opposite, formative years consisting of stubborn questioning. My evidence was my parents demonstrating contact with the 'dead'. They’re not unique. |
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Every morning the soul is once again as good as new, and again one offers it to one's brothers & sisters in life. | |
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| KlavierBauer | Jul 21 2010, 06:57 AM Post #58 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Faith isn't synonymous with belief. Faith requires some previous experiential knowledge. The first time you sit in a chair you *believe* that it will hold you - the second time you sit in that chair you have *faith* that it will. Faith isn't empty, blind belief, it is quite the opposite. So for me, faith is quite enough - therein lies the "evidence." |
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"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
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| Nobody's Sock | Jul 21 2010, 07:35 AM Post #59 |
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Fulla-Carp
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This is what happens when I ask the simple question of "where's the evidence?". Vague answers with sideways speak. Please don't take offense, but this is the kind of talk people of faith use, when trying to answer this question. So, if I may ask, what was this previous experiential knowledge you learned that gave you your faith? |
| "Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known." | |
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| KlavierBauer | Jul 21 2010, 07:58 AM Post #60 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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It's not sideways speak at all - I'm correcting an improper use of the word "faith" and putting a clearer definition to it. If you have to ask me what experiential knowledge I have of something greater than myself existing in the universe, then you haven't been paying attention the last several years. Rather than look for where you may have missed something though, I'm sure you'll instantly call the above "sideways speak" so I should at least try to put something tangible here. The problem with this sort of experiential knowledge is that it isn' always explainable in a few paragraphs on a forum. There have been literally thousands of times in my life that I have experienced something greater than myself, in a significant enough way that I recognized it. That's coming from me too - I'm not exactly your run of the mill touchy-feely new age thinker who feels his way through life sans fact and objectivity. My greatest source of experiential knowledge comes from 2000 years of apostolic succession and tradition, as well as the tradition, experiences, and knowledge of my family and close friends - people I trust. I know that won't mean much to you, but I'm not here to convert you, I'm here to answer your question about my own experiences. Without getting into details (not to be vague, but frankly because I don't need to be airing intimate details of very significant and powerful things in my life) I've had several "encounters" with things outside of this realm. In two such instances I knew exactly what (who) I was dealing with, being alone both times I had nothing but my own belief that something more powerful would aid me. In humility I asked for that help, and received it and at that point I had a real-world piece of experience that let me know that in tough times I wasn't alone. The last 10 years of my life have basically been full of this sort of realization - continual sitting in the proverbial chair if you will. I can say something cheesy like "I walk in the mountains and see God everywhere." That again puts God in a box and that's not my intent. Instead I go to the Hospital with a heart infection and congestive heart failure, and looking around I don't see God - I see nothing, and it scares me. I ask for God, and suddenly there he is - and there I am 8 months later, again on borrowed time, having walked through the fire for a third time. I can't ignore His presence in the Universe, and for some odd reason he doesn't ignore me. I suppose I could demand to see him or some physical manifestation of himself that would make me feel better - but that is sort of in contradiction with the entire philosophy. God isn't here to prove himself to me so that I may feel better about my place in the universe. Quite the opposite, I'm here to prove myself to Him. I'm sorry I don't have a story like "I fell off of a cliff and angels floated me to the ground." It simply isn't how God works in this world, as we have again and again asked him kindly not to interfere with our lives and our desires. He obliges and allows us to run the world the way we choose - but we can't be surprised then when he's not seen walking around in garden like he once did. Simply put, God requires a bit more of us than "seeing is believing" - believing is believing - seeing is just seeing. |
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"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
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| Renauda | Jul 21 2010, 08:01 AM Post #61 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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After much thought, I can somewhat relate to Thomas Paine's creed on the matter of faith and belief: "I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life. I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavouring to make our fellow-creatures happy. But, lest it should be supposed that I believe many other things in addition to these, I shall, in the progress of this work, declare the things I do not believe, and my reasons for not believing them. I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church. All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit. I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe otherwise; they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine. But it is necessary to the happiness of man that he be mentally faithful to himself. Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving; it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe." ~ Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason Part I, 1794 Needless to say I do not believe in divine interventions- especially miracles and immaculate conceptions- the Word or personal gods of any sort. I also disdain unsolicited religious poselytes and the institutions they promote. |
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| Axtremus | Jul 21 2010, 09:37 AM Post #62 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Eternal supply of good beer and great sex in the afterlife FTW! |
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| KlavierBauer | Jul 21 2010, 10:34 AM Post #63 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
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| Mikhailoh | Jul 21 2010, 10:38 AM Post #64 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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FIFY. NNTTM. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| John D'Oh | Jul 21 2010, 10:46 AM Post #65 |
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MAMIL
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I was brought up in the Church of England. You appear to be confusing it with the previous owners of the grounds. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| KlavierBauer | Jul 21 2010, 10:47 AM Post #66 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Oh people and their confused definitions of difficult words like "heresy." |
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"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
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| Mikhailoh | Jul 21 2010, 11:00 AM Post #67 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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Oh, sorry. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| John D'Oh | Jul 21 2010, 11:40 AM Post #68 |
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MAMIL
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Like I said, I'm Church of England. The buggers across the street think we're all heretics. The fact that they're confused is really none of my concern.
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| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| KlavierBauer | Jul 21 2010, 11:41 AM Post #69 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
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| ivorythumper | Jul 21 2010, 01:27 PM Post #70 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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I don't recall that -- but it depends on the terms. Nature, Earth, Reason, the State, Ego, Ax or Ivorythumper, etc can all be considered the greatest good (summum bonum) against which all other things must bow -- that would be a form of religion. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| John D'Oh | Jul 21 2010, 02:08 PM Post #71 |
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MAMIL
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Someone once said I was a cult - at least, I think that's what they called me. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| AndyD | Jul 22 2010, 04:20 AM Post #72 |
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Senior Carp
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Klavierbauer, I enjoyed reading your post #60.
Nicely put. And those with spiritual gifts are not only rare but in my experience seek no publicity or reward of any kind. |
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Every morning the soul is once again as good as new, and again one offers it to one's brothers & sisters in life. | |
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| Dewey | Jul 22 2010, 04:35 AM Post #73 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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KB, posts 58 and 60 are powerful words. I'm currently preparing a sermon that deals with almost the exact same issue, and it won't be as good as what you've written. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| Mikhailoh | Jul 22 2010, 04:59 AM Post #74 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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Amazing posts, KB, and, although much amplified, similar to my own experience. Particularly when it comes to the power of prayer. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| KlavierBauer | Jul 22 2010, 07:12 AM Post #75 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Thanks for the kind words all - I guess I had a moment of lucidity? A friend posted this on facebook today and it resonated with me - I instantly thought it belonged here: Above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you, because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it. -Roald Dahl |
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"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
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4:46 PM Jul 10