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And what about the economy of nursing home care?
Topic Started: Jul 15 2010, 04:34 AM (581 Views)
KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
So the person is relatively healthy - capable of eating solid food, body's still working correctly (for the most part) they're just not able to feed themselves. Do I understand correctly?
What would the cutoff age for this be? Any adult?
For example, would someone with endocarditis be allowed to throw in the towel if the thought of open heart surgery scared them, or if the sepsis was bad enough that they're on the brink anyway? Would it still be ok for them to choose this if they were only 18? Legitimate question - I'm curious what people think about this.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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kathyk
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Dewey
Jul 15 2010, 10:56 AM
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But, that is often first and foremost on the person's mind who is planning for his long term care. The lion's share of my clients come to me because they are terrified of the prospect of blowing through an entire life's savings paying for their own nursing home care. Add to that the fact that most of my clients express the desire that they do not want to live out the end of their life in a nursing home.


You've missed my point. If those people are coming to you, expressing the intent that they don't want to blow a half a million dollars in prolonging life in that circumstance, *they* have the right to express so, and to do it legally and in advance - that's what they're talking to *you* about. They're doing what they should.

My argument that the economic issue cannot be used is relative to a person who has *not* made clear in advance that this would be their desire, or who has expressly stated that they want to hang on as long as they can. Of course, the economic issue is a legitimate issue for the individual, in advance.
No argument there.

That's why advance health care directives are so important. Of the many hundreds of clients I've done health care directives for, I've had only one who stated that she wanted to be kept alive no matter what the circumstances were. All of the others have chosen not to prolong life when facing the ends of their lives.
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kathyk
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KlavierBauer
Jul 15 2010, 03:16 PM
So the person is relatively healthy - capable of eating solid food, body's still working correctly (for the most part) they're just not able to feed themselves. Do I understand correctly?
What would the cutoff age for this be? Any adult?
For example, would someone with endocarditis be allowed to throw in the towel if the thought of open heart surgery scared them, or if the sepsis was bad enough that they're on the brink anyway? Would it still be ok for them to choose this if they were only 18? Legitimate question - I'm curious what people think about this.
First of all, I view your situation or the situations of other young people very differently than I do people who have lived long lives and whose bodies are failing along multiple lines. I haven't studied the physician assisted suicide measures that Washington adopted very closely, but I think that there has to be a terminal condition that is measured in months until death, and I believe that two or three physicians have to concur on this, I think there is a waiting period and a requirement for counseling. So, there are quite a few safeguards in place to protect against someone like yourself getting so bogged down in the present misery of a condition that might be fixable to decide to throw in the towel; or someone who is suffering from a depressive order.

I guess what I would like to see - and I'm thinking through all of this myself, and haven't really formulated a solid opinion - is that there be a mechanism to ensure that everyone had advance health care directives (thanks to Sarah Palin, I think the measures to that end were removed from the health care bill), so that people's lives wouldn't be prolonged just because they could no longer express their desires. And, I would like to see physician assisted suicide become available in my state, with all of the safeguards in place. Now, the real thorny issue and slippery slope becomes administering it. No one is going to want to take that responsibility for giving the pill or people who lack mental capacity, not to mention the fact that it would no longer be suicide in such a case, but rather, arguably, manslaughter or murder. So, I'm still scratching my head.
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kathyk
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PS: KB, most people who are no longer able to feed themselves, unless there is a physiological cause, have such severe dementia that they would probably die pretty peacefully if they were allowed to just curl up in a fetal position (which they tend to do anyway) and die. I think that when they get to that point, the body, and even the mind, to the extent of what's left of it, wants to die.
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Kathy: I don't disagree with our second post.

As for terminal condition measured in "months" - many months? 6? 250? You can measure the entire expanse of time in months, so simply saying this doesn't apply to young people doesn't help me - I have dealt with multiple serious conditions simultaneously, and in my mind lived a full and wonderful life up until that point. I was ready to go more than once - would I have been justified in doing so? I personally believe yes - as the mechanism was/and is there to accomplish this naturally. I don't need assistance - assistance is how I live. Without assistance or intervention I die relatively quickly. So I'm not framing this entirely in my own personal context. It's just that having "been there" I know what it feels like to be at the end, and ready to cross the line. Because of that I'm curious to know how young is too young? How "terminal" does one have to be?
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Copper
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KlavierBauer
Jul 15 2010, 03:42 PM

Because of that I'm curious to know how young is too young?

Well we know the first trimester is too young. During that time you are fair game.

Maybe for balance we should say the last trimester on the other side is in play.

We'll have the supreme court declare life expectancy to be 90 and everyone over 60 can be sacrificed without penalty.

That has a nice symmetry to it.

Of course the final say should be up to the death panels.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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George K
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Copper
Jul 15 2010, 03:55 PM
Of course the final say should be up to the death panels.
Jon's looking for an appointment to one.

That's good for (some of) us, right? :lol2:
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Copper
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George K
Jul 15 2010, 04:03 PM
Copper
Jul 15 2010, 03:55 PM
Of course the final say should be up to the death panels.
Jon's looking for an appointment to one.

That's good for (some of) us, right? :lol2:

They will probably be chosen like the Selective Service chooses the local Draft Board members.

Check the application here to get some ideas about preparing:

https://www.sss.gov/localboardmembers/bminquiry.asp

The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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kathyk
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KlavierBauer
Jul 15 2010, 03:42 PM
Kathy: I don't disagree with our second post.

As for terminal condition measured in "months" - many months? 6? 250? You can measure the entire expanse of time in months, so simply saying this doesn't apply to young people doesn't help me - I have dealt with multiple serious conditions simultaneously, and in my mind lived a full and wonderful life up until that point. I was ready to go more than once - would I have been justified in doing so? I personally believe yes - as the mechanism was/and is there to accomplish this naturally. I don't need assistance - assistance is how I live. Without assistance or intervention I die relatively quickly. So I'm not framing this entirely in my own personal context. It's just that having "been there" I know what it feels like to be at the end, and ready to cross the line. Because of that I'm curious to know how young is too young? How "terminal" does one have to be?
Oregon's law requires that the expected date of death is six months. I think Washington's is similar.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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