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See SAW.; SAW gone?
Topic Started: Jul 7 2010, 06:56 PM (522 Views)
Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
http://sidearmtalk.com/2010/07/07/marine-acquisitions-officials-approval-to-buy-hundreds-of-5-56mm-infantry-automatic-rifles/
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Nice - those should be appreciated by infantry.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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JBryan
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I am the grey one
As a base of fire weapon it has a slightly greater magazine capacity than a BAR with the stopping power of a SAW. I don't understand. This looks like a step backward to me if they completely retire the SAW.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
JBryan
Jul 8 2010, 03:28 AM
As a base of fire weapon it has a slightly greater magazine capacity than a BAR with the stopping power of a SAW. I don't understand. This looks like a step backward to me if they completely retire the SAW.
Kinda my thoughts...the SAW is beltfed and can spit out more continuous fire...I don't know how prone it is to stoppage, though.

One thing that has happened in platoon weapons mix, is the re-emergence of the 30 caliber, both in personal weapons and in automatic weapons.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
The article gives no explanation for the proposed retirement of the SAW. I'd love to hear someone explain why the proposed change.

However, just yesterday I was reading about the Mauser KAR95 used by Germany in WWII. How they stuck with the bolt action rifle early on because the German concept was basically to have machine gun squads. The rifle was just a back up weapon. When faced by a squad of American GI's all armed with fast firing M1 Garands, they found themselves at a disadvantage (I suppose because of mobility and flanking maneuvers).
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Kincaid
Jul 8 2010, 10:06 AM
The article gives no explanation for the proposed retirement of the SAW. I'd love to hear someone explain why the proposed change.

However, just yesterday I was reading about the Mauser KAR95 used by Germany in WWII. How they stuck with the bolt action rifle early on because the German concept was basically to have machine gun squads. The rifle was just a back up weapon. When faced by a squad of American GI's all armed with fast firing M1 Garands, they found themselves at a disadvantage (I suppose because of mobility and flanking maneuvers).
You're thinking of the KAR98k, which first appeared in the 1930s. The Model 95 was never fielded by the German army, but was issued by the Mexican and Chinese armies.

The Mexican mauser action is a bit smaller than the 98 action, doesn't have gas shield and cocks when it closes...but that doesn't keep it from being a very nice action to build a mildcat sporter.

I have a Model 96, which I ought to have been shot for sporterizing. When I bought the rifle, it was missing a rear sight, but if you know Swedish mausers, you know that they serial numbered everything! My rifle had all matching numbers...receiver, barrel, front sight, stock, stock ring, triggerguard, bolt, etc.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Kincaid
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Jolly
Jul 8 2010, 10:47 AM
You're thinking of the KAR98k, which first appeared in the 1930s.
:doh:

Oops. Beautiful rifle - wish I had a nice example. A Swedish Mauser (or Persian) would be nice - such beautiful stocks.

I have the Model 91 - Argentine Mauser. Bought for nostalgic reasons because my Dad had one just like it and it was the first rifle I ever took hunting. It was converted to a carbine and was a bruiser (and loud as hell).
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Kincaid
Jul 8 2010, 10:58 AM
Jolly
Jul 8 2010, 10:47 AM
You're thinking of the KAR98k, which first appeared in the 1930s.
:doh:

Oops. Beautiful rifle - wish I had a nice example. A Swedish Mauser (or Persian) would be nice - such beautiful stocks.

I have the Model 91 - Argentine Mauser. Bought for nostalgic reasons because my Dad had one just like it and it was the first rifle I ever took hunting. It was converted to a carbine and was a bruiser (and loud as hell).
http://www.mauser.net/firearms/rifles/mauser-rifles/k98german/index.htm

Now, before you rush out to find a dealer for them to ship to, read all the stuff you can find on the web about Mitchell's. Chances are, you may or may not get a WWII K98...but you will get a pretty nicely redone M98 mauser...don't look on it as a collector, but as a shooter.

If you might want to collect guns, military Mausers have a lot to offer...they're generally not wildly expensive, almost all of them lose very little to no value if you want to shoot them occasionally and there are a bunch of them out there, with all kinds of subsets and niches.

Would be a fun hobby to have...
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Qaanaaq-Liaaq
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Senior Carp
The article doesn't say what the general's reason is for going with the M27. Maybe the M27 weighs less and is less complex than the M249 SAW?

In a combat situation, I'd prefer the one that holds more rounds even if it weighs more. It's less time spent on relocking and reloading.

The M27 holds only 30 rounds? That's only a 50% improvement over the M16 with it's 20 round magazine which is what I trained on when I was in the Army.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
The plot thickens...

This writer seems to think the Marines want to field the H&K as a new issue carbine, but didn't want to wade through the red tape to replace the M4:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/06/07/m27-infantry-automatic-rifle/
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
That makes a heck of a lot more sense than as a replacement for the SAW. Nothing like 200 round capacity for keeping the other guys' heads down in a firefight.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
A friend in Vegas for a bachelor party (a liberal Canadian no less) went to a rent-a-gun range and got to shoot 40 rounds thru an M249 just last week.

Then topped it off with five rounds thru a .44 mag pistol, but I doubt he'll convert.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
I eventually sold my .44 mag because it just cost too much to go to the range.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Reload.

And cast your own bullets!
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Yeah - not a *huge* cost savings though - at least not for .44 mag.
Not to mention, finding a range is difficult. We can shoot in national forest here, but for a quick shoot (when I don't want to drive to the mountains for the afternoon) I like to go to an indoor range. I can't do that with mag rounds in most places. Not to mention I won't be carrying a .44 anytime soon, so I'd rather practice with the Sig and the Taurus. :)
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
I live almost across the road from a baseball park.

By now, they're used to hearing Jolly out there with his Makarov or his SKS. If it's raining, I'll shoot off the back carport.

God Bless the South....
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
:)

Love the SKS.
In fact, in the zombie thread I just mentioned that I would take the SKS over the AR-15 for shear durability.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
KlavierBauer
Jul 13 2010, 10:03 AM
:)

Love the SKS.
In fact, in the zombie thread I just mentioned that I would take the SKS over the AR-15 for shear durability.
I believe in the concept of aimed fire.

Something that shoots a 4" group at 100 yards is not my idea of "aimed". That's more in the realm of pointed in the general direction.

A good SKS will group in at around 2 inches, which is very good for what it is. Since the 7.62x39 round is man effective out to around 400m, an 8" group is vastly preferable to a 16" group.

I am also not a proponent of automatic fire. Burst at worst, semi-auto at best. Spray and pray is not aimed fire, either.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Agreed.
And in the impending zombie apocalypse, anything you can fix a bayonet to will be preferable.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
Jolly
Jul 13 2010, 09:58 AM
I live almost across the road from a baseball park.

By now, they're used to hearing Jolly out there with his Makarov or his SKS. If it's raining, I'll shoot off the back carport.

God Bless the South....
and probably for most it doesn't even raise an eyebrow.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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Luke's Dad
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Emperor Pengin
KlavierBauer
Jul 13 2010, 11:13 AM
Agreed.
And in the impending zombie apocalypse, anything you can fix a bayonet to will be preferable.
Forget the bayonet. Give me an old fashioned WW1 Trench Spike. In-Out-Next.
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
KlavierBauer
Jul 13 2010, 11:13 AM
Agreed.
And in the impending zombie apocalypse, anything you can fix a bayonet to will be preferable.
See I'd use that for outdoors ONLY. WAY too long an arrangement for indoors.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Well yes - hopefully you aren't firing an SKS indoors, as it would potentially tear through a few houses and their inhabitants. I mention the bayonet only because a horde moving closer and closer to your tactical position may eventually come upon you, at which point you may be happy to be able to bayonet a few of them at a safe distance before dropping the rifle for the katana on your back.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Luke's Dad
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Katanas are so unimaginative.

Posted Image

The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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Luke's Dad
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Emperor Pengin
Posted Image
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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