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Arizona Immigration Law; Governor signed it into law today
Topic Started: Apr 23 2010, 02:49 PM (2,021 Views)
OperaTenor
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kenny
Apr 24 2010, 11:36 AM
Slavery provided an underclass for cheap labor - great for an economy - bad for the slaves, but who cares about subhumans?

Illegal aliens serve a similar purpose in today's American economy.
*DING* WINNAR!



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Axtremus
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big al
 
The one question of personal interest for me is "Should I carry my passport with me if I'm visiting Arizona"?
Applies to just about any one who transits via, say, the PHX airport. It's messy.

I'm for "mandatory National ID," which will go a long way towards solving the problem; though the folks who are most likely to support this Arizona law is also most likely to oppose "National ID."
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taiwan_girl
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Axtremus
Apr 26 2010, 08:10 AM
big al
 
The one question of personal interest for me is "Should I carry my passport with me if I'm visiting Arizona"?
Applies to just about any one who transits via, say, the PHX airport. It's messy.

I'm for "mandatory National ID," which will go a long way towards solving the problem; though the folks who are most likely to support this Arizona law is also most likely to oppose "National ID."
I agree. I think that the US should have a national ID card. It would be interesting to see how many people here on this forum board are in favor or against. Maybe that is another topic. :)
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ivorythumper
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big al
Apr 26 2010, 06:10 AM
Certainly, my driver's license wouldn't (or to my mind, shouldn't) suffice. It carries no evidence of legal residence in the US, only the state of Pennsylvania.

Big Al
Last I checked, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania was part of the United States.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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OperaTenor
Apr 26 2010, 08:00 AM
kenny
Apr 24 2010, 11:36 AM
Slavery provided an underclass for cheap labor - great for an economy - bad for the slaves, but who cares about subhumans?

Illegal aliens serve a similar purpose in today's American economy.
*DING* WINNAR!

So what do you think of Caesar Chavez's policies in favor of turning in illegal aliens?
from wiki:
Quote:
 
Immigration

The UFW during Chávez's tenure was committed to restricting immigration. César Chávez and Dolores Huerta fought the Bracero Program that existed from 1942 to 1964. Their opposition stemmed from their belief that the program undermined US workers and exploited the migrant workers. Their efforts contributed to Congress ending the Bracero Program in 1964. In 1973, the UFW was one of the first labor unions to oppose proposed employer sanctions that would have prohibited hiring undocumented immigrants. Later during the 1980s, while Chávez was still working alongside UFW president, Dolores Huerta, the cofounder of the UFW, was key in getting the amnesty provisions into the 1986 federal immigration act.[9]

On a few occasions, concerns that undocumented migrant labor would undermine UFW strike campaigns led to a number of controversial events, which the UFW describes as anti-strikebreaking events, but which have also been interpreted as being anti-immigrant. In 1969, Chávez and members of the UFW marched through the Imperial and Coachella Valleys to the border of Mexico to protest growers' use of undocumented immigrants as strikebreakers. Joining him on the march were both Reverend Ralph Abernathy and US Senator Walter Mondale.[10] In its early years, Chávez and the UFW went so far as to report undocumented immigrants who served as strikebreaking replacement workers, as well as those who refused to unionize, to the Immigration and Naturalization Service.[11][12][13][14][15]

In 1973, the United Farm Workers set up a "wet line" along the United States-Mexico border to prevent Mexican immigrants from entering the United States illegally and potentially undermining the UFW's unionization efforts.[16] During one such event in which Chávez was not involved, some UFW members, under the guidance of Chávez's cousin Manuel, physically attacked the strikebreakers, after attempts to peacefully persuade them not to cross the border failed.[17][18][19]
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Dewey
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Quote:
 
My question for Jeff is why not just eliminate property?


shantinik... shantinik... paging shantinik... ^_^

Arizona isn't wasting its time trying to solve a federal problem, it's trying to solve a state problem caused by lack of action on Washington's part. More power to them.

Having said that, the real problem is the ridiculous immigration system, at least as it is applied to Hispanic nations. We need secure borders, but we also need realistic immigration policy that makes people who want to come to this country able to do so legally, and in the numbers which our economy apparently requires.

Make them legal, so they aren't so terrified of deportation (almost impossible, but a fear nonetheless) that they'll die of appendicitis, sitting in their apartment with their 16 roommates, rather than going to the hospital for treatment.

Make them legal, so they're not only paying their FICA taxes (and realize that most of them are paying into FICA, using fake SSNs, into a system that they'll never access), but they're also paying federal, state, and local income taxes.

Make them legal, so they don't have to pay outrageous amounts of money to coyotes to get them across the border, or risk being robbed, raped, beaten, or killed, in dozens of ways just trying to travel from their own country into ours. To be honest, the dangers that many illegal immigrants from Central and South America face just to get here so they can put food on the table for their families back home, are much more than the dangers faced by so many of our legal, supposedly more acceptable forebears coming from other places in other times. We should really understand what most of them have gone through just to get here, and respect that.

Make them legal, so employers can't knowingly and willingly exploit them, making them nothing more than slave labor.

Make them legal, because it's the right thing to do.

If someone is here illegally *after* we set our immigration policy right and secure our border, then they should be put on the first bus or plane home. But at present, our arguments against legalizing many, if not most, of those already here illegally ring a bit hollow when our country has stacked the deck in order to make legal immigration almost impossible, while there are no jobs available int heir home countries, and there are jobs here.

I can tell you that if I were in their shoes, I would do everything I could to get across that border and find work to support my family. And I wouldn't lose a minute's sleep if, because the system was set up to make it so, I had to get here illegally.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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big al
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ivorythumper
Apr 26 2010, 09:07 AM
big al
Apr 26 2010, 06:10 AM
Certainly, my driver's license wouldn't (or to my mind, shouldn't) suffice. It carries no evidence of legal residence in the US, only the state of Pennsylvania.

Big Al
Last I checked, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania was part of the United States.
My point was that Pennsylvania required no evidence of citizenship or immigration status at the time I secured my Pennsylvania driver's license so it can not (or at least should not) be considered evidence of legal residence in the USA. Furthermore, there have been ongoing disputes in several states as to whether or not to issue driver's licenses to illegal aliens.

Big Al
Location: Western PA

"jesu, der simcha fun der man's farlangen."
-bachophile
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1hp
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Funny how no one sees the solution as forcing the Mexican government to work on making a better life for Mexicans in Mexico. There is, after all, a reason that Mexicans are in the US. Why is it that the US is expected to bend over backwards for what is a Mexico problem?

There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those that understand binary and................
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Aqua Letifer
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1hp
Apr 26 2010, 10:36 AM
Funny how no one sees the solution as forcing the Mexican government to work on making a better life for Mexicans in Mexico. There is, after all, a reason that Mexicans are in the US.
I've been saying that for a long time, actually.

My cousin just finished up training to be a border guard in Arizona. From what he tells me NOTHING we do is going to prevent droves of people from trying to jump the border.

Other methods to prevent border crossing aside, there's a reason they don't like their home country so much and want to leave. I also think that helping some of the home countries of some of our immigrants clean up their act would help us out in the long term, too.

Not that this is the only solution but I think working with these other governments on something besides border patrol needs to happen if we want to see any long term solutions.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Steve Miller
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Axtremus
Apr 26 2010, 08:10 AM
the folks who are most likely to support this Arizona law is also most likely to oppose "National ID."
Curious, that.
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Dewey
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Steve Miller
Apr 26 2010, 10:50 AM
Axtremus
Apr 26 2010, 08:10 AM
the folks who are most likely to support this Arizona law is also most likely to oppose "National ID."
Curious, that.
Not me. I think it's crazy that we don't have one.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Steve Miller
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Dewey
Apr 26 2010, 11:27 AM
Steve Miller
Apr 26 2010, 10:50 AM
Axtremus
Apr 26 2010, 08:10 AM
the folks who are most likely to support this Arizona law is also most likely to oppose "National ID."
Curious, that.
Not me. I think it's crazy that we don't have one.
But then again, you don't support the law.

(GREAT post @ 10:32 BTW :thumb: )
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Dewey
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Actually Steve, I do support the law, at least the provisions I've read about. It addresses a legitimate problem faced by the Arizonans, caused by the Federal government not doing the right thing. Since Arizona truly can't enact legislation to make them legal, and more able to fully participate within the society and economy, they have to do what they can. So in an odd twist, I support the AZ law - but I wish Washington would take the right steps, which would make the Arizona law unnecessary.

And thanks for the compliment on the earlier post.

I've been in the tight moral spot of receiving a phone call from Tijuana from a Honduran friend, asking if I could send him $200 to help him pay his coyote to get him across the border. I know this man; I've been a guest in his home (which, to call it "humble" would be a gross understatement). On my first trip to Honduras, I hurt myself (nothing too serious; smashed my hand with a hammer). He was working right beside me, he grabbed my hand and rubbed it until the pain went away. He's the pastor of a small house church that occupies half of his 20x20 house. I know his two sons - he's that rarest of Hondurans - a male single parent. I know that he can't afford to feed them, much less pay for their uniforms and books that they need in order to attend school. And I know that he's already literally risked his life just to get from Honduras to Tijuana, still with no guarantee he'll make it across the border and find work to support his boys.

Getting phone calls like that put your larger geopolitical political views to the real test.
Edited by Dewey, Apr 26 2010, 02:12 PM.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Mark
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A national ID? Really Dewey?

OMG.

Statist leanings abound.
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Dewey
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I only say so because we already have one, Mark. We might as well stop pretending we don't, and at least accept the potential benefits of making it official.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Mark
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Um no we do not currently have one.
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Dewey
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You're right. Actually, we have at least two, our Social Security cards, and our passports. I've just never been one to get all worked up over that particular issue. I know that based on my overall political leanings, I'm supposed to, but I don't. I favor strong borders, and I see a national ID as an extension of that same national need.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Mark
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Um Passports are voluntary. I do not have one and suspect I never will have one. I have no desire to have one.

SS cards are NOT an ID card.

We do not have a mandatory national ID card and I want it to stay that way.
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Dewey
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SS cards were always *promised* not to be used as an ID card. We all know the reality is something very different. Passports are indeed voluntary. But I hope to need one many, many more times. Shoot, you can't even go to Canada without one any more. I'm just not afraid of a national ID card. I figure the government has shown its ability to fcuk me any way they want, even without one. Any particular way they could think of doing so with a card, they can find a way of doing without it.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Steve Miller
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Mark
Apr 26 2010, 02:46 PM
We do not have a mandatory national ID card and I want it to stay that way.
I "get" the ideology, but on a practical level what do you think would happen if we had one? What would change?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
big al
Apr 26 2010, 10:12 AM
ivorythumper
Apr 26 2010, 09:07 AM
big al
Apr 26 2010, 06:10 AM
Certainly, my driver's license wouldn't (or to my mind, shouldn't) suffice. It carries no evidence of legal residence in the US, only the state of Pennsylvania.

Big Al
Last I checked, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania was part of the United States.
My point was that Pennsylvania required no evidence of citizenship or immigration status at the time I secured my Pennsylvania driver's license so it can not (or at least should not) be considered evidence of legal residence in the USA. Furthermore, there have been ongoing disputes in several states as to whether or not to issue driver's licenses to illegal aliens.

Big Al
A driver's license is certainly considered a valid form of identification for Federal purposes, such as TSA security checks, so I don't see why a State should not be entitled to the presumption of validity -- unless of course you for some other reason don't want the State to be entitled to the presumption of validity.

The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Mark
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OK, first of all WE CANNOT AFFORD ANY MORE GOVERNMENT!

300 million ID cards and the maintenance of said cards will cost billions and billions of dollars!

We cannot afford it. We are already in debt way over our heads and the government keeps spending more in record amounts each and every day.

Stop it already!
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Axtremus
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ivorythumper
Apr 26 2010, 03:02 PM
big al
Apr 26 2010, 10:12 AM
ivorythumper
Apr 26 2010, 09:07 AM
big al
Apr 26 2010, 06:10 AM
Certainly, my driver's license wouldn't (or to my mind, shouldn't) suffice. It carries no evidence of legal residence in the US, only the state of Pennsylvania.

Big Al
Last I checked, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania was part of the United States.
My point was that Pennsylvania required no evidence of citizenship or immigration status at the time I secured my Pennsylvania driver's license so it can not (or at least should not) be considered evidence of legal residence in the USA. Furthermore, there have been ongoing disputes in several states as to whether or not to issue driver's licenses to illegal aliens.

Big Al
A driver's license is certainly considered a valid form of identification for Federal purposes, such as TSA security checks, so I don't see why a State should not be entitled to the presumption of validity -- unless of course you for some other reason don't want the State to be entitled to the presumption of validity.

The whole point of the new Arizona law is to give state/local law enforcement officials the power to verify citizenship/immigration status. Driver's license from most states give no indication as to the holder's citizenship/immigration status.

Get it?
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Axtremus
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Mark
Apr 26 2010, 03:36 PM
OK, first of all WE CANNOT AFFORD ANY MORE GOVERNMENT!

300 million ID cards and the maintenance of said cards will cost billions and billions of dollars!

We cannot afford it. We are already in debt way over our heads and the government keeps spending more in record amounts each and every day.

Stop it already!
Mark, one national ID card system can replace all 50 states' 50 different systems. Any one whose job function is to check IDs then only needs to be trained to check one type of ID instead of 50 types. Think of all the savings!
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Mark
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No thank you!

Stop forcing your views on me through the government.
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