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| Arizona Immigration Law; Governor signed it into law today | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 23 2010, 02:49 PM (2,022 Views) | |
| taiwan_girl | Apr 25 2010, 02:08 AM Post #26 |
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Fulla-Carp
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I think that this law has some good points - one of which is mentioned by Big John in his first post. It will make the USA federal government take some action. I think that people on each side of the debate agree that something needs to be done with immigration. |
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| apple | Apr 25 2010, 05:19 AM Post #27 |
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one of the angels
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i think it is important to do something. My inlaws live in El Paso.. their back yard fence sits on the state line of Texas/Arizona. The wives came from El Paso where it is so dangerous now to visit because of inumerable killings due to drug turf wars. My inlaw wives are Mexican and they talk about how easy it is to cross over illegally. |
| it behooves me to behold | |
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| 1hp | Apr 25 2010, 11:26 AM Post #28 |
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Fulla-Carp
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At this point in time we have an official unemployment rate of around 10%, and an actual unemployment rate of closer to 20%, and the number is still going up. What purpose would it make to "open the gates" flooding the country with more unemployed? |
| There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those that understand binary and................ | |
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| Jeff | Apr 25 2010, 01:13 PM Post #29 |
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Senior Carp
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To create more jobs. Supply creates demand, and immigrants bring human capital. They do not take jobs, they create them. Edited by Jeff, Apr 25 2010, 01:14 PM.
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| ivorythumper | Apr 25 2010, 02:33 PM Post #30 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Interesting idea, Jeff, but it seems that once a certain degree of infrastructure has been developed, that no longer holds true. For any immigrant moving to the country, what sort of jobs are created that don't previous exist? Nothing in housing (in fact, you want them to absorb housing overstock), nothing in labor, nothing in food services, nothing in retail, nothing in utilities, nothing in health care, nothing in agriculture, nothing in the tech sector, nothing in financial services.... About all that happens is the social services and some government jobs are over taxed, and all jobs values are diminished by oversupply of labor. What jobs are you talking about? |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Jeff | Apr 25 2010, 02:41 PM Post #31 |
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Senior Carp
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They start businesses, from dry cleaning to Ebay to the department store. |
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| ivorythumper | Apr 25 2010, 02:50 PM Post #32 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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So we need a new dry cleaner on the corner? More competition in the market place that drives down the value of all labor? I am all in favor of smart immigration, but I don't see you making that argument in regards to the original question of illegal aliens, and I don't see you making that argument from any serious economic analysis about job creation. Someone is going to start that new taqueria, but that is hardly sustainable job creation. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Jeff | Apr 25 2010, 03:25 PM Post #33 |
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Senior Carp
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An economy is synergistic. It is not like there is a fixed lump of economic activity to divvy among a certain number of people. Growth and trade and activity beget more growth and trade activity. For example, Jewish immigrants founded the garment trade, bringing cheap clothing to the whole country. This business line did not exist prior to that immigration. No existing cheap clothing trade was displaced. Everyone was just better clothed and had more money in their pockets post-clothing expense as a result of this immigration. The rest of the country could then spend the extra post-clothing weekly budget on a whole host of other things - movies, books, housing, etc. Tons and tons and tons of new jobs all around in all kinds of businesses as a result of the drop in clothing costs and the de facto bump in weekly income.. Hooray for immigration. The more the better. Edited by Jeff, Apr 25 2010, 03:28 PM.
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| ivorythumper | Apr 25 2010, 03:36 PM Post #34 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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You are talking about industries and the growth of markets, Jeff. Do you have any evidence that the paradigms of 100 years ago are still applicable today? It seems that both globalism and market saturation need to be taken into account if you are going to make those sorts of claims as a basis for social policy. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Jeff | Apr 25 2010, 03:39 PM Post #35 |
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Senior Carp
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That's why I mentioned Ebay. It's not like capitalism has stopped. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Omidyar Pierre Morad Omidyar (Persian: پیر امیدیار; born June 21, 1967) is a French-born Armenian-Iranian entrepreneur and philanthropist/economist, and the founder/chairman of the eBay auction site.[2] Omidyar and his wife Pam are well-known philanthropists who founded Omidyar Network in 2004 in order to expand their efforts beyond non-profits to include for-profits and public policy. Omidyar Network is a philanthropic investment firm committed to creating and fostering opportunity for people around the world. Omidyar was born in Paris, France to Iranian immigrant parents, both of whom had been sent by his grandparents to attend university there.[3] His mother Elahé Mir-Djalali Omidyar, who did her doctorate in linguistics at the Sorbonne, is herself a well-known academic.[4] His father was a surgeon.[5] The family moved to the US when Omidyar was six. Edited by Jeff, Apr 25 2010, 03:44 PM.
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| Jeff | Apr 25 2010, 03:42 PM Post #36 |
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Senior Carp
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Brin Sergey Brin (born August 21, 1973) is a Russian-American computer scientist,[5] who, along with Larry Page, is best known as the co-founder of Google, Inc., the world’s largest Internet company, based on its search engine and online advertising technology.[6] Together with Page, they are often referred to as the "Google Guys". According to Forbes he is currently the 24th richest person in the world with a personal wealth of US$17.5 billion in 2010.[7] Brin immigrated to the United States at the age of six. Edited by Jeff, Apr 25 2010, 03:42 PM.
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| Jeff | Apr 25 2010, 03:47 PM Post #37 |
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Senior Carp
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Not just business. The country benefits from immigration in countless ways by bringing the talented and the striving from all over the world: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Powell Colin Luther Powell (pronounced /ˈkoʊlɨn/; born April 5, 1937) is an American statesman and a retired four-star general in the United States Army. He was the 65th United States Secretary of State (2001–2005), serving under President George W. Bush. He was the first African American appointed to that position.[1][2][3][4] During his military career, Powell also served as National Security Advisor (1987–1989), as Commander-in-Chief, U.S. Army Forces Command (1989) and as Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (1989–1993), holding the latter position during the Gulf War. He was the first, and so far the only, African American to serve on the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Colin Luther Powell was born on April 5, 1937[5] in Harlem, a neighborhood in the New York City borough of Manhattan, to Jamaican immigrant parents Maud Arial (née McKoy) and Luther Theophilus Powell. Edited by Jeff, Apr 25 2010, 03:48 PM.
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| ivorythumper | Apr 25 2010, 03:57 PM Post #38 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Those don't in any manner speak to the question. Certainly Omidyar and Brin are not the cause for new markets, nor are the influx of a bunch of Indian Brahmins in Silicon Valley. A lot of 19th cent industrialists also immigrated, or were the children of immigrants. Great, everyone who moves here finds work and makes money. Some excel wildly, others just become part of the fabric of society, others are negative drains on society through criminal activity or sucking resources from the tax base. You seem to be arguing the immigration per se creates new jobs, not individuals who happen to be from another country who made their fortunes here. What new jobs does immigration per se create in today's current economy? |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| 1hp | Apr 25 2010, 04:08 PM Post #39 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Let's face it, the immigrants you are talking about are Mexicans - millions of them. They are not going to start the next eBay, and they are not going to create jobs. If the economy was booming the story might be different, but at this time that isn't going to happen. |
| There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those that understand binary and................ | |
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| jon-nyc | Apr 25 2010, 04:12 PM Post #40 |
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Cheers
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The richest man in Forbes' tally is a Mexican entrepreneur. Himself the child of Lebanese immigrants. |
| In my defense, I was left unsupervised. | |
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| ivorythumper | Apr 25 2010, 04:35 PM Post #41 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Al Capone was the son of an immigrant. That is not an argument against immigration any more than the folks in your grab bag are arguments for immigration. None of these anecdotes have anything to do with the basis for sound immigration policy or in any way speak to the question of illegal aliens. I still have not seen an actual argument that immigration per se (especially in the sense of legalizing those who are already here illegally, as Jeff advocates) would create jobs in our current state of development. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| apple | Apr 25 2010, 04:46 PM Post #42 |
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one of the angels
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What kind of jobs? nannies? roofing? Too many under the table jobs undermine tax base. Immigrants who come to the country to register as citizens are easily assimilated. Those who sneak in cause havoc in many ways. I'm all for immigration.. I just think that WE should control it and not suffer the consequences of it 'controlling' us. |
| it behooves me to behold | |
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| Jeff | Apr 25 2010, 04:55 PM Post #43 |
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Senior Carp
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Maybe in the first generation. Just as Jews sewed clothing in dark rooms so their children could be Supreme Court justices and write Hollywood movies. I have no problem with a harsh "law and order" crack-down on drug gangs in Phoenix. I even think "learn English" laws and other conservative social assimilation ideas have significant merit. If you want to be here, contribute to the country. But we as a country should figure out how to have more immigration from around the world, not less, and our policies should derive from that premise. We only let in, what, 1 million a year? It should be 10 times that. Edited by Jeff, Apr 25 2010, 04:57 PM.
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| Jeff | Apr 25 2010, 06:02 PM Post #44 |
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Senior Carp
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Az and Nv have lots of near worthless foreclosed houses built during the boom. The US government should buy them up en masse at appraised value, and the give them out as door prizes to anyone around the world with a BA in a science or an MA in the humanities willing to immigrate to the US. Advertise around the world, not only in our neighbor to the south. Stand back and watch our economy grow.
Edited by Jeff, Apr 25 2010, 06:02 PM.
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| 1hp | Apr 25 2010, 06:29 PM Post #45 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Stay on the subject. Arizona is not complaining about the people on the Forbes list. They also aren't having a problem with people with BA degrees in Science or MA degrees in humanities. If you can't stay with the issue there is no point having the discussion. Or is the title of this thread not about Arizona Immigration Law? |
| There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those that understand binary and................ | |
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| apple | Apr 25 2010, 06:41 PM Post #46 |
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one of the angels
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I like what you have to say Jeffrey.. I also like the idea of allowing law enforcement to know who is and who is not legal. why not? just send the illegals to the registration office |
| it behooves me to behold | |
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| Larry | Apr 25 2010, 07:14 PM Post #47 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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I really do wish the American Left would actually read a copy of the Constitution... |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| ivorythumper | Apr 25 2010, 09:40 PM Post #48 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Here is the text of the SB 1070. What exact parts of the bill do those who object to the bill find objectionable? It seems that the bill requires the LEO to act in good faith, and is only indemnified if found to be be acting good faith, and the standards of Federal Law regarding the protection of civil rights. 27 I. A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER IS INDEMNIFIED BY THE LAW ENFORCEMENT 28 OFFICER'S AGENCY AGAINST REASONABLE COSTS AND EXPENSES, INCLUDING ATTORNEY 29 FEES, INCURRED BY THE OFFICER IN CONNECTION WITH ANY ACTION, SUIT OR 30 PROCEEDING BROUGHT PURSUANT TO THIS SECTION TO WHICH THE OFFICER MAY BE A 31 PARTY BY REASON OF THE OFFICER BEING OR HAVING BEEN A MEMBER OF THE LAW 32 ENFORCEMENT AGENCY, EXCEPT IN RELATION TO MATTERS IN WHICH THE OFFICER IS 33 ADJUDGED TO HAVE ACTED IN BAD FAITH. 34 J. THIS SECTION SHALL BE IMPLEMENTED IN A MANNER CONSISTENT WITH 35 FEDERAL LAWS REGULATING IMMIGRATION, PROTECTING THE CIVIL RIGHTS OF ALL 36 PERSONS AND RESPECTING THE PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES OF UNITED STATES 37 CITIZENS. What is the problem? |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| jon-nyc | Apr 26 2010, 01:08 AM Post #49 |
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Cheers
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Since when is that a requirement at TNCR? |
| In my defense, I was left unsupervised. | |
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| big al | Apr 26 2010, 06:10 AM Post #50 |
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Bull-Carp
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I think Jeffrey's basic take on immigration is correct. Very few of us would be here to argue about it were it not for generation after generation of previous immigration (but maybe that would be OK with Larry ).I hear great anger and frustration over illegal immigration, but wonder why it has gone largely unchecked year after year after year. I think you need to follow the money, just like with many things. The one question of personal interest for me is "Should I carry my passport with me if I'm visiting Arizona"? It or my birth certificate seem to me to be the only readily produceable evidence of legal status for a US citizen travelling within the boundaries of that state. Certainly, my driver's license wouldn't (or to my mind, shouldn't) suffice. It carries no evidence of legal residence in the US, only the state of Pennsylvania. Big Al |
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Location: Western PA "jesu, der simcha fun der man's farlangen." -bachophile | |
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