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Arizona Immigration Law; Governor signed it into law today
Topic Started: Apr 23 2010, 02:49 PM (2,019 Views)
Big John
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Senior Carp
The Fed has so dropped the ball with AZ that this measure is a great move to force the issue in DC, which seems to be in the business of trying to please everyone on immigration -- so it ends up pleasing no one. It's going to be interesting to see how they respond.

The law makes it illegal, among other things, to hire ILLEGAL aliens. It almost sounds redundant.





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jon-nyc
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Cheers
As Steve Miller pointed out, its interesting to see that Arizona is doing so well as a state they can now focus on federal issues.


They must have great schools in Arizona.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Jeff
Senior Carp
jon-nyc
Apr 24 2010, 10:52 AM
As Steve Miller pointed out, its interesting to see that Arizona is doing so well as a state they can now focus on federal issues.


They must have great schools in Arizona.
The rankings of Cali, Wyoming and Maryland are surprising, albeit for different reasons.
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Jeff
Senior Carp
Big John
Apr 23 2010, 02:49 PM
The Fed has so dropped the ball with AZ that this measure is a great move to force the issue in DC, which seems to be in the business of trying to please everyone on immigration -- so it ends up pleasing no one. It's going to be interesting to see how they respond.

The law makes it illegal, among other things, to hire ILLEGAL aliens. It almost sounds redundant.
Lower the drawbridge and let them in. All they want is a chance at the good life in America like we have. Give'em a shot.

And who else is gonna buy all the worthless dwellings built in Arizona during the housing mania?
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Jeff
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Big John
Apr 23 2010, 02:49 PM


The law makes it illegal, among other things, to hire ILLEGAL aliens.
So make them legal taxpayers and solve the conundrum.
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Big John
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Jeff
Apr 24 2010, 10:59 AM
So make them legal taxpayers and solve the conundrum.
Perhaps we should reopen Ellis Island? After all, the facilities are already in place.





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Big John
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Jeff
Apr 24 2010, 10:57 AM
Lower the drawbridge and let them in. All they want is a chance at the good life in America like we have. Give'em a shot.

And who else is gonna buy all the worthless dwellings built in Arizona during the housing mania?
Heck, why stop there? If you have any undeveloped lawns or grass on your property, why not pass a law then allowing people to squat on your land? After all, all they want is a chance at the good life in America like we have. If our borders don't mean anything, then surely the concept of private property is also defective?





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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
Slavery provided an underclass for cheap labor - great for an economy - bad for the slaves, but who cares about subhumans?

Illegal aliens serve a similar purpose in today's American economy.
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Jeff
Senior Carp
Big John
Apr 24 2010, 11:25 AM
Jeff
Apr 24 2010, 10:59 AM
So make them legal taxpayers and solve the conundrum.
Perhaps we should reopen Ellis Island? After all, the facilities are already in place.
Yes. Of course. 1/6th of America (or their ancestors) came through there. Keep'em coming. These immigrants made America great.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Jeff
Apr 24 2010, 10:57 AM
Big John
Apr 23 2010, 02:49 PM
The Fed has so dropped the ball with AZ that this measure is a great move to force the issue in DC, which seems to be in the business of trying to please everyone on immigration -- so it ends up pleasing no one. It's going to be interesting to see how they respond.

The law makes it illegal, among other things, to hire ILLEGAL aliens. It almost sounds redundant.
Lower the drawbridge and let them in. All they want is a chance at the good life in America like we have. Give'em a shot.

And who else is gonna buy all the worthless dwellings built in Arizona during the housing mania?
Open borders, Jeff? Are you serious?
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Big John
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My question for Jeff is why not just eliminate property? I mean if the borders are open, why have fences or gates on our property? It starts to look different when you can actually SEE the people on your doorstep.





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Jeff
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ivorythumper
Apr 24 2010, 12:29 PM
Jeff
Apr 24 2010, 10:57 AM
Big John
Apr 23 2010, 02:49 PM
The Fed has so dropped the ball with AZ that this measure is a great move to force the issue in DC, which seems to be in the business of trying to please everyone on immigration -- so it ends up pleasing no one. It's going to be interesting to see how they respond.

The law makes it illegal, among other things, to hire ILLEGAL aliens. It almost sounds redundant.
Lower the drawbridge and let them in. All they want is a chance at the good life in America like we have. Give'em a shot.

And who else is gonna buy all the worthless dwellings built in Arizona during the housing mania?
Open borders, Jeff? Are you serious?
Yer not even asking the right question. (Doesn't it bother you that you agree with Quirt on this?)

Without a sustained increase in population, America's long term fiscal problems are nearly insoluble.

This can happen via increased fertility or via increased immigration. Immigration of adults is quicker.

Instead of nonsense about open borders and confused philosophical questions about property rights (BJ), we should be asking what we can do as a nation to rapidly increase both the quality and number of immigrants to the country, and then set immigration policies to further that rapid increase in quality immigration. Immigrants here illegally are at least likely to be pluckier and more likely to take risks and work hard to improve their lot than the average person. So let's legalize all of them now without exception, and then set about getting more with a rational policy of economic growth behind it as a guiding philosophy.

We should be getting more, not kicking them out.
Edited by Jeff, Apr 24 2010, 01:09 PM.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Sorry, Jeff, you're way too facile about this whole thing. Are you proposing open borders or not? You state "lower the drawbridge" -- what does that mean if not open borders?

"This can happen via increased fertility or via increased immigration. Immigration of adults is quicker."

For the past 40 years we've aborted 50 million of our own. You completely support that insane social policy. In the 70s, 80s and 90s prolifers were making the economic argument about this, but the abortion ideologues were not interested. Not to get into an abortion tangent, but these things really do have massive economic impact. I have little confidence in solutions proposed by people who don't even appreciate that their policies made the problems in the first place.

"the quality and number of immigrants to the country ..... Immigrants here illegally are at least likely to be pluckier and more likely to take risks and work hard to improve their lot than the average person."

"Pluckier"? They'll pluck out your eyeballs for ransom, Jeff. Why do you think AZ is #1 in kidnapping? It is all brown on brown violence. But Obama and Holder and the Left won't allow Sheriff Joe to target that because it is "racial profiling."

You really propose a wholesale amnesty -- including the coyotes and the gang bangers and the kidnappers and those who come up here to have babies so that they get on the gravy train? A lot of them are hardworking. But a lot of them are not, and we need a mechanism for sorting them out.

We already have a process for increasing numbers and quality -- the legal system. Tweak the numbers. Give extended green cards for migrant workers. Do it legally. Tell them to go back to Juarez and Nogales and Tijuana, sign up, get a card, and walk in legally, so that the authorities KNOW who is here and can weed out the criminals.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Free Rider
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Fulla-Carp
Jeff
Apr 24 2010, 01:08 PM

Instead of nonsense about open borders and confused philosophical questions about property rights (BJ), we should be asking what we can do as a nation to rapidly increase both the quality and number of immigrants to the country, and then set immigration policies to further that rapid increase in quality immigration. Immigrants here illegally are at least likely to be pluckier and more likely to take risks and work hard to improve their lot than the average person. So let's legalize all of them now without exception, and then set about getting more with a rational policy of economic growth behind it as a guiding philosophy.

We should be getting more, not kicking them out.
I disagree.
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
Let's just consolidate all the countries into one.

Just imagine.
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Jeff
Senior Carp
ivorythumper
Apr 24 2010, 01:27 PM


For the past 40 years we've aborted 50 million of our own. You completely support that insane social policy. In the 70s, 80s and 90s prolifers were making the economic argument about this, but the abortion ideologues were not interested.
False. Abortion does not reduce total number of children the typical woman has. It just lets her pick the proper time and place for her to do best by them. The teen who aborts typically goes on to get married, get an education, and then have a few kids at the best time and place for them. The abortion did not reduce the total number of kids she has during her whole lifetime.

It just lets her control her life and do better by her actual kids.
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Free Rider
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Jeff
Apr 24 2010, 01:48 PM

It just lets her control her life and do better by her actual kids.
Yes but this is not all that happens. Long lasting shame and guilt can also occur.

I'm proof of that.
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Jeff
Senior Carp
ivorythumper
Apr 24 2010, 01:27 PM

"Pluckier"? They'll pluck out your eyeballs for ransom, Jeff. Why do you think AZ is #1 in kidnapping? It is all brown on brown violence. But Obama and Holder and the Left won't allow Sheriff Joe to target that because it is "racial profiling."

You really propose a wholesale amnesty -- including the coyotes and the gang bangers and the kidnappers and those who come up here to have babies so that they get on the gravy train? A lot of them are hardworking. But a lot of them are not, and we need a mechanism for sorting them out.
In New York the vast majority I observe are hard working and contribute greatly to the economy. Chinese, Russian, Domenican in particular. The parents open restaurants and the kids populate Stuyvesant High and get science scholarships.

If you link some facts about Arizona kidnapping I'd be happy to see it.

Immigration policy should be oriented towards long-term economic growth, and greatly increased. If this occurs in conjunction with a crackdown and sorting process, I have no objection, though I don't see it as the big issue.

As a moral issue America has been a beacon of hope for immigrants around the world for 2 centuries. Similar arguments as those above were used to keep Jews out of America in the 30's, condemning them to death.

Open the gates and let in anyone who wants to work hard and contribute to our society. Immigration is America's great strength.
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Jeff
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Free Rider
Apr 24 2010, 01:52 PM
Jeff
Apr 24 2010, 01:48 PM

It just lets her control her life and do better by her actual kids.
Yes but this is not all that happens. Long lasting shame and guilt can also occur.

I'm proof of that.
It is also possible that some women who couldn't get an abortion and were forced to have a kid they didn't want feel bad for a long time, too.

Such questions are deeply personal and nothing is gained by depriving women of the ability to control their life and bodies.

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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
I think it's about time somebody mentioned the Nazis. They used slave labour, and killed millions of people.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Who were these Nazis? They sound like really bad people.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
Oh Goddie an Abortion Debate!!!

Just as long as it's not about shrimpies...which reminds me... when does shrimp life begin?
When the eggs are delivered (leave the mother's body)?
When the eggs hatch?
At one of the larval stages during the first week?
Or after the last larval stage when we finally see a real baby shrimp?

When does shrimp life begin?
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Ayatollah Khamenei
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Junior Carp
jon-nyc
Apr 24 2010, 03:28 PM
Who were these Nazis? They sound like really bad people.
You have no idea....
Allah'u Akhbar!
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Jeff
Apr 24 2010, 01:48 PM
ivorythumper
Apr 24 2010, 01:27 PM


For the past 40 years we've aborted 50 million of our own. You completely support that insane social policy. In the 70s, 80s and 90s prolifers were making the economic argument about this, but the abortion ideologues were not interested.
False. Abortion does not reduce total number of children the typical woman has. It just lets her pick the proper time and place for her to do best by them. The teen who aborts typically goes on to get married, get an education, and then have a few kids at the best time and place for them. The abortion did not reduce the total number of kids she has during her whole lifetime.

It just lets her control her life and do better by her actual kids.
False. Abortion also often renders women incapable of carrying future pregnancies to term, or precipitating infant mortality.

Funderburk et al., "Suboptimal Pregnancy Outcome with Prior Abortions and Premature Births," Amer. Jour. OB/GYN, Sept. 1, 1976, pp. 55-60

L. Wilcox et al., "Assisted Repro. Tech . . . & Multiple Births..," Fert. & Ster., vol. 65 #2, Feb. ’96, p. 361

V. Logrillo et al., "Effect of Induced Abortion on Subsequent Reproductive Function," N.Y. State Dept. of Health, Contract #1-HD-6-2802, 1975-78

L. Iffy, "Second-Trimester Abortions," JAMA, vol. 249, no. 5, Feb. 4, 1983, p. 588

"Relation of Abortion to Premature Birth," Review French GYN-OB, vol. 62, no. 81, 1967

A. Jakobovits & L. Iffy, "Perinatal Implications of Therapeutic Abortion." Principals and Practice of OB & Perinatalogy, New York, J. Wiley & Sons, 1981, p. 603

C. Madore et al., "Effects of Induce Abortion on Subsequent Pregnancy Outcome," Amer. Jour. OB/GYN, vol. 139, 1981, pp. 516-521 161

G. Ratten et al., "Effect of Abortion on Maturity of Subsequent Pregnancy," Med. Jour. of Australia, June 1979, pp. 479-480

S. Harlap et al., "Spontaneous Fetal Losses After Induced Abortions," New England Jour. Med., vol. 8, Sept. 1971, p. 691

Hilgers et al., "Fertility Problems Following an Aborted First Pregnancy." In New Perspectives on Human Abortion, edited by S. Lembrych. University Publications of America, 1981, pp. 128-134

The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Jeff
Apr 24 2010, 01:56 PM
ivorythumper
Apr 24 2010, 01:27 PM

"Pluckier"? They'll pluck out your eyeballs for ransom, Jeff. Why do you think AZ is #1 in kidnapping? It is all brown on brown violence. But Obama and Holder and the Left won't allow Sheriff Joe to target that because it is "racial profiling."

You really propose a wholesale amnesty -- including the coyotes and the gang bangers and the kidnappers and those who come up here to have babies so that they get on the gravy train? A lot of them are hardworking. But a lot of them are not, and we need a mechanism for sorting them out.
In New York the vast majority I observe are hard working and contribute greatly to the economy. Chinese, Russian, Domenican in particular. The parents open restaurants and the kids populate Stuyvesant High and get science scholarships.

If you link some facts about Arizona kidnapping I'd be happy to see it.

Immigration policy should be oriented towards long-term economic growth, and greatly increased. If this occurs in conjunction with a crackdown and sorting process, I have no objection, though I don't see it as the big issue.

As a moral issue America has been a beacon of hope for immigrants around the world for 2 centuries. Similar arguments as those above were used to keep Jews out of America in the 30's, condemning them to death.

Open the gates and let in anyone who wants to work hard and contribute to our society. Immigration is America's great strength.
I guess you haven't been paying attention. It was in the national news.

I have no idea if you really do have any semblance of a policy in your mind or not. I see no one arguing against controlled legal immigration, even in a generous and expansive program to get the brightest and the best. All you keep talking about seems to be legalizing anyone who happens to already be here, and lowering the drawbridge to let anyone in. You offer no framework for eliminating the undesirables, than than a handwaving "if you can do it, I would not object".

The parallel to the Jews is a bizarre stretch: what exact arguments that I framed were similar to those used to keep Jews out of the US in the 30s? :shrug:

The dogma lives loudly within me.
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