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On gendercide in China.
Topic Started: Apr 12 2010, 03:22 AM (399 Views)
jon-nyc
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I realize threads on this topic quickly turn into generic abortion threads, but can we spend a little time discussing the impact of gendercide in China before we take the thread there?

Imagine the implications of a china with 30MM surplus of men. It will almost certainly add an aggressive and violent streak to the culture. At the same time, one can only hope it will increase the value society places on girls which could solve the problem in the subsequent generation.

Anyway, this is worth a read:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1265068/China-The-worlds-new-superpower-beginning-century-supremacy-alarming-surplus-males.html
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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VPG
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Really shameful, but one other thing pops out at me from the article more than the abortion argument getting started here. How about the writer claiming this practice will create Homosexuals. Create Homosexuals? Wow!
My friend's daughter adopted a Chinese girl a few years ago. Process was fairly easy. Couple years later she adopted another. The entire thing took longer and went on and on. I never thought about it before, but I guess the folks in charge are starting to see the light and realize they may need a few more women.
I'M NOT YELLING.........I'M ITALIAN...........THAT'S HOW WE TALK!


"People say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look."
Ronald Reagan, Inaugural, 1971

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jon-nyc
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Yeah, we looked into china adoption (our plan B when we decided to have kids - rather late - was int'l adoption).

THey said it took about 2 years. It used to be 6 months. Korea (where you almost always get a boy, curiously) takes only 6-8 months.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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apple
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son #2 is in a class with 87% boys.. just a fluke. The dreaded class in now in the 7th grade.
it behooves me to behold
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Horace
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jon-nyc
Apr 12 2010, 03:22 AM
Imagine the implications of a china with 30MM surplus of men. It will almost certainly add an aggressive and violent streak to the culture.
That is pretty ominous. And we don't have ground wars anymore to solve such problems.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Red Rice
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They may just flood into Hong Kong. For some reason, there's a surplus of women there.
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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brenda
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..............
There is so much sadness in that article and for so many reasons. It's hard to pick which section is most appalling or disheartening.

However, China's gendercide is not new news at all. This has been going on for years and years there, perhaps decades. A group of students in my econ classes did their presentation project on this topic over ten years ago. It wasn't new then either.

Is the world finally waking up to this?
“Weeds are flowers, too, once you get to know them.”
~A.A. Milne
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jon-nyc
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No, its been a topic of discussion for a long time. Its just becomes more and more newsworthy as the girl gap becomes the woman gap.
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kenny
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How tragic. :(

Social engineering is creepy but that's what this backfired one-child policy was.
Now the government must fix what they broke.

I don't know how they'd enforce it but outlawing the dowry is one idea so girls are seen as less of a liability.
Another is requiring taking in the elderly parents of BOTH the wife and husband.

These are both creepy big brother things, but hey, so was one-child.

Also maybe nature will help out.
Wouldn't a low supply of women naturally chip away at the size and even the idea of the dowry?
Women are now more in demand and valuable, in a creepy commodity kind of way.
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jon-nyc
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kenny
Apr 12 2010, 09:38 AM
Social engineering is creepy but that's what this backfired one-child policy was.
It isn't just that but I'm sure that hurts. India has a greater imbalance than China, and there's no one child policy there.

The real issue is cultural.

There is hope - I understand South Korea completely 'fixed' this problem in a single generation.
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Piano*Dad
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Indeed (in response to Kenny). There are women in China now who are tremendous con artists, preying on ill-educated men, especially in rural areas. These women develop a fictitious 'family background,' allow themselves to be courted, and then 'marry.' They then take the bride payment and run off to the next 'job.' This gives new meaning to the term due diligence.
Edited by Piano*Dad, Apr 12 2010, 09:51 AM.
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Red Rice
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Piano*Dad
Apr 12 2010, 09:50 AM
Indeed (in response to Kenny). There are women in China now who are tremendous con artists, preying on ill-educated men, especially in rural areas. These women develop a fictitious 'family background,' allow themselves to be courted, and then 'marry.' They then take the bride payment and run off to the next 'job.' This gives new meaning to the term due diligence.
Hmmm. Like Russian mail-order brides.
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
jon-nyc
Apr 12 2010, 09:42 AM
There is hope - I understand South Korea completely 'fixed' this problem in a single generation.
How?
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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
They probably came to the realization that Korean women are incredibly beautiful and the more there are of them, the better.
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
I wonder if the new affluence of China will change this tradition of depending on family for security.
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Free Rider
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brenda
Apr 12 2010, 08:47 AM
There is so much sadness in that article and for so many reasons. It's hard to pick which section is most appalling or disheartening.
Yes, I agree. The saddest is the thought that some human lives are "worth" more than others.
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jon-nyc
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I don't think that's it, in fact if you look what people do (rather than what they say) you'll note that most everyone views some human lives as more valuable than others. (would you give up a kidney for baby-FR? why haven't you done so for whomever is next on the transplant list?)

What's unusual about some of these Asian cultures is that they make the value distinction among their own children, and base it solely on gender.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
Free Rider
Apr 12 2010, 10:27 AM
The saddest is the thought that some human lives are "worth" more than others.
(thread hijack)

But this is something we all intuitively feel and is hard-wired into us: the lives of those we love ARE worth more to us than the lives of others.

(edit: jon beat me to it)
Edited by Red Rice, Apr 12 2010, 10:35 AM.
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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jon-nyc
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indeed, see my previous, RR.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Free Rider
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jon-nyc
Apr 12 2010, 10:30 AM
I don't think that's it, in fact if you look what people do (rather than what they say) you'll note that most everyone views some human lives as more valuable than others. (would you give up a kidney for baby-FR? why haven't you done so for whomever is next on the transplant list?)

What's unusual about some of these Asian cultures is that they make the value distinction among their own children, and base it solely on gender.
Sorry. Maybe my wording was confusing.

I think it's sad that some newborns are viewed as worth more, or less, based upon their gender.

It is indeed a fact that throughout our lives we place higher values upon certain human lives.

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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
jon-nyc
Apr 12 2010, 10:30 AM
What's unusual about some of these Asian cultures is that they make the value distinction among their own children, and base it solely on gender.
Also reminds me of "Sophie's Choice".
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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Piano*Dad
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The danger from China today is that states with surplus males can be (and often are) more aggressive internationally. We haven't had pulverizing ground wars because most of the states that could initiate these wars are ones that have no surplus males anymore (like Germany, France, the UK etc.). If you look carefully, you will see lots of bloody wars in the developing world. The huge war in and around the Congo is a great example. It's called Africa's WWI for good reason. As long as wars like that are fought by essentially insignificant countries, there is minimal outcry. But China and India are now becoming important nation states, and their young populations put them in the danger category. If they become internationally adventuresome we could have a very 'interesting' next fifty years.
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kenny
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Perhaps this military resource of "extra expendable" males was part of China's plan all along when devising One-Child.

They ain't dumb.
They had to know many more females would be aborted.
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Axtremus
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kenny
Apr 12 2010, 11:14 AM
Perhaps this military resource of "extra expendable" males was part of China's plan all along when devising One-Child.

They ain't dumb.
They had to know many more females would be aborted.
More likely the central planning leadership took a calculated risk -- they determined that the risk of out-of-control population growth is much greater than the risk of gender imbalance, and implemented the "one child policy" anyway.

But, see jon's example of India -- no "one child policy" in India, same (more severe) gender imbalance problem.
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