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Why we need a middle-class tax increase
Topic Started: Apr 11 2010, 04:50 PM (1,310 Views)
big al
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Bull-Carp
Axtremus
Apr 12 2010, 11:19 AM
At some point, you're going to have to ask: "Has America grown too complicated for the average voter to grasp?"
And at some point you'll also have to ask whether the obfuscation of the numbers by a wide variety of means done by both the right and left makes the average voter throw up his hands in despair of ever understanding where the money comes from and where it goes.

Big Al
Location: Western PA

"jesu, der simcha fun der man's farlangen."
-bachophile
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
From thin air.

To thin air.
___.___
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o 0
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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Jeff
Senior Carp
Piano*Dad
Apr 12 2010, 09:30 AM
If the bulk of a country's public debt is held domestically, then that society cannot actually make future generations pay.
Adam Smith argues (I just finished reading Book V) that while domestically held sovereign debt does not move money outside a society, of course, it does move it from productive entreprenurial business investment and manufactures to passive and luxury-consumption oriented bond holders and thus does weaken the long term growth rate and wealth of the nation. Thus debt should be held down to promote the long term growth rate of the nation even if the debt is financed domestically
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Piano*Dad
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Bull-Carp
Adam Smith was a wise man, but his every word does not a mantra make. In general, however, I think he is correct here. And the modern equivalent would be that excessive debt-financed government spending can crowd out more productive private sector investment with less productive government consumption. This presumes, of course, that the government debt isn't being used to finance public goods with a huge internal rate of return. I would have been far happier if a much larger chunk of Obama's stimulus would have been devoted to a set of infrastructure projects that had been professionally vetted for their long run effects on labor productivity.
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RosemaryTwo
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HOLY CARP!!!
Red Rice
Apr 12 2010, 07:13 AM
RosemaryTwo
Apr 12 2010, 05:44 AM
We just got our tax bill today.

I am angry and frustrated.
Property or income tax?

I got an unexpected income tax refund this year, mainly because of my job change. I try to keep to keep the amount owed/owing as close to zero as possible.

My property tax seems to defy logic. According to the assessment, my property is continuing to increase in value at the same rate as it did during the real estate bubble.
Right now it's federal income tax.

Between my husband and me, we have an Ivy League education and 2 semesters of federal income tax legal education.

Yet it would take months and immense energy for us to complete our taxes so we have to hire an accountant, who sends us heavy, thick paperwork to sign.

It shouldn't be that way.

I feel overtaxed and feel I have no effective voice in the federal government right now.





"Perhaps the thing to do is just to let stupid run its course." Aqua
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Jeff
Senior Carp
Piano*Dad
Apr 12 2010, 02:34 PM
I would have been far happier if a much larger chunk of Obama's stimulus would have been devoted to a set of infrastructure projects that had been professionally vetted for their long run effects on labor productivity.
Yer problem there would be called "Congress".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pork_barrel
Edited by Jeff, Apr 12 2010, 02:52 PM.
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The 89th Key
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RosemaryTwo
Apr 12 2010, 02:38 PM
Red Rice
Apr 12 2010, 07:13 AM
RosemaryTwo
Apr 12 2010, 05:44 AM
We just got our tax bill today.

I am angry and frustrated.
Property or income tax?

I got an unexpected income tax refund this year, mainly because of my job change. I try to keep to keep the amount owed/owing as close to zero as possible.

My property tax seems to defy logic. According to the assessment, my property is continuing to increase in value at the same rate as it did during the real estate bubble.
Right now it's federal income tax.

Between my husband and me, we have an Ivy League education and 2 semesters of federal income tax legal education.

Yet it would take months and immense energy for us to complete our taxes so we have to hire an accountant, who sends us heavy, thick paperwork to sign.

It shouldn't be that way.

I feel overtaxed and feel I have no effective voice in the federal government right now.





Well said
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
Everyone please find and vote for candidates that will eliminate this abomination of a tax system!

Thanks!
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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mark
Apr 12 2010, 02:55 PM
Everyone please find and vote for candidates that will eliminate this abomination of a tax system!

Thanks!
Easier to migrate to another country with no income tax.
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
But it's the right thing to do Ax.
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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mark
Apr 12 2010, 03:01 PM
But it's the right thing to do Ax.
Not unless the same candidate can come up with (or support) a better system than the one he plans to eliminate.
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
Here's one.

CUT THE SIZE AND SCOPE OF THE GOVERNMENT! NOW!
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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mark
Apr 12 2010, 03:07 PM
Here's one.

CUT THE SIZE AND SCOPE OF THE GOVERNMENT! NOW!
That's not a system.
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Luke's Dad
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Emperor Pengin
Piano*Dad
Apr 12 2010, 02:34 PM
I would have been far happier if a much larger chunk of Obama's stimulus would have been devoted to a set of infrastructure projects that had been professionally vetted for their long run effects on labor productivity.
That was my primary issue with the stimulus. It seemed like most of the jobs created would be of the one and done category. Personally, I was hoping to see heavier investment into greener technologies to help develop and get them to market.
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Some who enacted the stimulus seemed to think government could pay a crew of workers to dig holes one day and another crew to fill them up the next and they would have created jobs. Well, yeah, they would have created work but real jobs involve creation of wealth.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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brenda
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..............
jon-nyc
Apr 12 2010, 09:14 AM
Re political will, probably no one. Both parties have conditioned much of their supporters that they needn't pay for government.

Re 'flirtation', I have been a fiscal conservative my whole life.
Re political will: That's my point. I doubt anyone will carry this banner. And therein lies the problem. Even a good idea must have a champion to move it forward.

Re 'flirtation': I've noticed and appreciated your fiscal positions, Jon. You may recall I have noted them, and agreed with them, in past threads. I'll try to be careful using the 'C' word about you though. I don't want to give you any heartburn. :lol2:

:wave:
“Weeds are flowers, too, once you get to know them.”
~A.A. Milne
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
Piano*Dad
Apr 12 2010, 07:45 AM
I think the issue is not really about making middle class families pay 1 or 2 K more in taxes. It's about linking the size of government on into the future to the amount of taxes that the middle income family will pay. Once that link is more firmly established, I think it is not at all unreasonable to think that voting patterns will be affected. Once people are clear that a bigger government will mean more taxes on them (instead of on those rich 'others') then people are more likely to weigh programs with more care. In fact, I'm equally concerned not to drop poor people completely off the tax rolls. Everyone should have some positive tax liability linked to the general treasury. This is what thoroughly gets at the agency issue.
I'm not sure why middle class earners are being singled out in this thread as a prime target for remedial "agency problem" training. It might be argued that of the 5 quintiles, their life styles are most affected by the taxes they do pay. I doubt that as a group they are less likely to realize that the people they vote for create the government they must pay for.

I agree with you that it is important to maintain some taxes on everybody - even if those taxes get taken out of checks written to them by the government. It's the principal and perception of the thing.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
brenda
Apr 12 2010, 03:43 PM
I'll try to be careful using the 'C' word about you though. I don't want to give you any heartburn.
Don't worry, i keep tums in my desk.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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RosemaryTwo
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HOLY CARP!!!
Funny moment last night.

My husband, sitting on the floor with papers and pens spread all around him, was writing out checks for all of our various taxes, shaking his head, and flipping through stacks of paper.

The stress was evident in the room to my boys and me, who were watching some sporting event.

When my husband was done, he sighed, gathered up all the big, heavy-duty paper clips, held them out to me and said, "Here." And after a loaded pause, "We have these."

"Perhaps the thing to do is just to let stupid run its course." Aqua
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brenda
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..............
RosemaryTwo
Apr 13 2010, 09:16 AM
Funny moment last night.

My husband, sitting on the floor with papers and pens spread all around him, was writing out checks for all of our various taxes, shaking his head, and flipping through stacks of paper.

The stress was evident in the room to my boys and me, who were watching some sporting event.

When my husband was done, he sighed, gathered up all the big, heavy-duty paper clips, held them out to me and said, "Here." And after a loaded pause, "We have these."

Funny and sad all at the same time. :lol2:
“Weeds are flowers, too, once you get to know them.”
~A.A. Milne
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brenda
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..............
jon-nyc
Apr 12 2010, 08:25 PM
brenda
Apr 12 2010, 03:43 PM
I'll try to be careful using the 'C' word about you though. I don't want to give you any heartburn.
Don't worry, i keep tums in my desk.
OK, but if it gets to the point you have to take Prilosec, just let me know. :lol2:
“Weeds are flowers, too, once you get to know them.”
~A.A. Milne
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big al
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Bull-Carp
I don't see anything very fair about Jon's proposal. Why should the middle quintile who earn 13.2% of all income pay 20% of all individual federal taxes while the top two quintiles that earn over 75% of all the income catch a break? Even the flat tax advocates don't go that far.
[numbers from 2006 CBO report - Historical Effective Federal Tax Rates: 1979 to 2006]

Big Al
Location: Western PA

"jesu, der simcha fun der man's farlangen."
-bachophile
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Inequitable tax burden is a symptom.

The root cause is wealth/income disparity.

The "middle class" or "average tax payer" is not really "in [or near] the middle" when you have fat tail distribution.

Minimizing that wealth/income gap would be more beneficial than tweaking the tax system to equalize tax burden.
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
Axtremus
Apr 15 2010, 06:23 PM
Minimizing that wealth/income gap would be more beneficial than tweaking the tax system to equalize tax burden.
Yep, agreed.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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