| Welcome to The New Coffee Room. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Why we need a middle-class tax increase | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 11 2010, 04:50 PM (1,310 Views) | |
| big al | Apr 12 2010, 11:27 AM Post #76 |
|
Bull-Carp
|
And at some point you'll also have to ask whether the obfuscation of the numbers by a wide variety of means done by both the right and left makes the average voter throw up his hands in despair of ever understanding where the money comes from and where it goes. Big Al |
|
Location: Western PA "jesu, der simcha fun der man's farlangen." -bachophile | |
![]() |
|
| Mark | Apr 12 2010, 11:32 AM Post #77 |
|
HOLY CARP!!!
|
From thin air. To thin air. |
|
___.___ (_]===* o 0 When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells | |
![]() |
|
| Jeff | Apr 12 2010, 02:06 PM Post #78 |
|
Senior Carp
|
Adam Smith argues (I just finished reading Book V) that while domestically held sovereign debt does not move money outside a society, of course, it does move it from productive entreprenurial business investment and manufactures to passive and luxury-consumption oriented bond holders and thus does weaken the long term growth rate and wealth of the nation. Thus debt should be held down to promote the long term growth rate of the nation even if the debt is financed domestically |
![]() |
|
| Piano*Dad | Apr 12 2010, 02:34 PM Post #79 |
|
Bull-Carp
|
Adam Smith was a wise man, but his every word does not a mantra make. In general, however, I think he is correct here. And the modern equivalent would be that excessive debt-financed government spending can crowd out more productive private sector investment with less productive government consumption. This presumes, of course, that the government debt isn't being used to finance public goods with a huge internal rate of return. I would have been far happier if a much larger chunk of Obama's stimulus would have been devoted to a set of infrastructure projects that had been professionally vetted for their long run effects on labor productivity. |
![]() |
|
| RosemaryTwo | Apr 12 2010, 02:38 PM Post #80 |
|
HOLY CARP!!!
|
Right now it's federal income tax. Between my husband and me, we have an Ivy League education and 2 semesters of federal income tax legal education. Yet it would take months and immense energy for us to complete our taxes so we have to hire an accountant, who sends us heavy, thick paperwork to sign. It shouldn't be that way. I feel overtaxed and feel I have no effective voice in the federal government right now. |
| "Perhaps the thing to do is just to let stupid run its course." Aqua | |
![]() |
|
| Jeff | Apr 12 2010, 02:49 PM Post #81 |
|
Senior Carp
|
Yer problem there would be called "Congress". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pork_barrel Edited by Jeff, Apr 12 2010, 02:52 PM.
|
![]() |
|
| The 89th Key | Apr 12 2010, 02:53 PM Post #82 |
|
Well said |
![]() |
|
| Mark | Apr 12 2010, 02:55 PM Post #83 |
|
HOLY CARP!!!
|
Everyone please find and vote for candidates that will eliminate this abomination of a tax system! Thanks! |
|
___.___ (_]===* o 0 When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells | |
![]() |
|
| Axtremus | Apr 12 2010, 02:59 PM Post #84 |
|
HOLY CARP!!!
|
Easier to migrate to another country with no income tax. |
![]() |
|
| Mark | Apr 12 2010, 03:01 PM Post #85 |
|
HOLY CARP!!!
|
But it's the right thing to do Ax. |
|
___.___ (_]===* o 0 When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells | |
![]() |
|
| Axtremus | Apr 12 2010, 03:03 PM Post #86 |
|
HOLY CARP!!!
|
Not unless the same candidate can come up with (or support) a better system than the one he plans to eliminate. |
![]() |
|
| Mark | Apr 12 2010, 03:07 PM Post #87 |
|
HOLY CARP!!!
|
Here's one. CUT THE SIZE AND SCOPE OF THE GOVERNMENT! NOW! |
|
___.___ (_]===* o 0 When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells | |
![]() |
|
| Axtremus | Apr 12 2010, 03:13 PM Post #88 |
|
HOLY CARP!!!
|
That's not a system. |
![]() |
|
| Luke's Dad | Apr 12 2010, 03:14 PM Post #89 |
![]()
Emperor Pengin
|
That was my primary issue with the stimulus. It seemed like most of the jobs created would be of the one and done category. Personally, I was hoping to see heavier investment into greener technologies to help develop and get them to market. |
| The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it. | |
![]() |
|
| JBryan | Apr 12 2010, 03:33 PM Post #90 |
![]()
I am the grey one
|
Some who enacted the stimulus seemed to think government could pay a crew of workers to dig holes one day and another crew to fill them up the next and they would have created jobs. Well, yeah, they would have created work but real jobs involve creation of wealth. |
|
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
![]() |
|
| brenda | Apr 12 2010, 03:43 PM Post #91 |
![]()
..............
|
Re political will: That's my point. I doubt anyone will carry this banner. And therein lies the problem. Even a good idea must have a champion to move it forward. Re 'flirtation': I've noticed and appreciated your fiscal positions, Jon. You may recall I have noted them, and agreed with them, in past threads. I'll try to be careful using the 'C' word about you though. I don't want to give you any heartburn.
|
|
“Weeds are flowers, too, once you get to know them.” ~A.A. Milne | |
![]() |
|
| Horace | Apr 12 2010, 06:27 PM Post #92 |
|
HOLY CARP!!!
|
I'm not sure why middle class earners are being singled out in this thread as a prime target for remedial "agency problem" training. It might be argued that of the 5 quintiles, their life styles are most affected by the taxes they do pay. I doubt that as a group they are less likely to realize that the people they vote for create the government they must pay for. I agree with you that it is important to maintain some taxes on everybody - even if those taxes get taken out of checks written to them by the government. It's the principal and perception of the thing. |
| As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good? | |
![]() |
|
| jon-nyc | Apr 12 2010, 08:25 PM Post #93 |
|
Cheers
|
Don't worry, i keep tums in my desk. |
| In my defense, I was left unsupervised. | |
![]() |
|
| RosemaryTwo | Apr 13 2010, 09:16 AM Post #94 |
|
HOLY CARP!!!
|
Funny moment last night. My husband, sitting on the floor with papers and pens spread all around him, was writing out checks for all of our various taxes, shaking his head, and flipping through stacks of paper. The stress was evident in the room to my boys and me, who were watching some sporting event. When my husband was done, he sighed, gathered up all the big, heavy-duty paper clips, held them out to me and said, "Here." And after a loaded pause, "We have these." |
| "Perhaps the thing to do is just to let stupid run its course." Aqua | |
![]() |
|
| brenda | Apr 13 2010, 10:15 AM Post #95 |
![]()
..............
|
Funny and sad all at the same time.
|
|
“Weeds are flowers, too, once you get to know them.” ~A.A. Milne | |
![]() |
|
| brenda | Apr 13 2010, 10:16 AM Post #96 |
![]()
..............
|
OK, but if it gets to the point you have to take Prilosec, just let me know.
|
|
“Weeds are flowers, too, once you get to know them.” ~A.A. Milne | |
![]() |
|
| big al | Apr 13 2010, 12:47 PM Post #97 |
|
Bull-Carp
|
I don't see anything very fair about Jon's proposal. Why should the middle quintile who earn 13.2% of all income pay 20% of all individual federal taxes while the top two quintiles that earn over 75% of all the income catch a break? Even the flat tax advocates don't go that far. [numbers from 2006 CBO report - Historical Effective Federal Tax Rates: 1979 to 2006] Big Al |
|
Location: Western PA "jesu, der simcha fun der man's farlangen." -bachophile | |
![]() |
|
| Axtremus | Apr 15 2010, 06:23 PM Post #98 |
|
HOLY CARP!!!
|
Inequitable tax burden is a symptom. The root cause is wealth/income disparity. The "middle class" or "average tax payer" is not really "in [or near] the middle" when you have fat tail distribution. Minimizing that wealth/income gap would be more beneficial than tweaking the tax system to equalize tax burden. |
![]() |
|
| Horace | Apr 15 2010, 06:25 PM Post #99 |
|
HOLY CARP!!!
|
Yep, agreed. |
| As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good? | |
![]() |
|
| « Previous Topic · The New Coffee Room · Next Topic » |










4:54 PM Jul 10