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Why we need a middle-class tax increase
Topic Started: Apr 11 2010, 04:50 PM (1,312 Views)
Piano*Dad
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Bull-Carp
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Re 'flirtation', I have been a fiscal conservative my whole life.


I think that is apparent to anybody who carefully reads what you have written.

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My earlier remarks about ensuring that everyone have some fiscal stake in the government was not meant to judge between the two parties. I full well understand the recent (since Reagan) republican urge to run huge budget deficits. Whether this is designed deliberately to soak future generations or instead to starve the beast is a topic for another debate. The whole notion of making future generations pay is somewhat problematic, and especially so if the bulk of the debt is held domestically. If the bulk of a country's public debt is held domestically, then that society cannot actually make future generations pay. In such a case, what you can do is force a big income transfer in the future that goes from taxpayers to bond holders. You cannot actually build today's houses with tomorrow's bricks.

To the extent that foreigners now hold a large portfolio, we will wind up taxing ourselves to pay foreign debt holders in the future.
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
Actually, I take it back. Making the lower quintiles sit down and write checks to pay their (somewhat hidden) taxes would probably cause as much class warfare as it would calls for gov't accountability.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
It's ridiculous.

WE DO NOT NEED THE INCOME TAX!
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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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The 89th Key
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Cut the government in half, tax everyone above the poverty line the same flat rate. Fair and problem solved.
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
No personal details required.

Sales tax. Period.
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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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Free Rider
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Fulla-Carp
jon-nyc
Apr 12 2010, 04:28 AM


Rather, the point is that - for the health of the democracy - we should have households at the median national income pay the average tax amount (not rate). Anything less and you create an agency problem which fundamentally alters the relationship between citizen and government. As I said before, the goal is that the attitude of the average voter toward his government be that of a responsible steward, not that of a supplicant or child looking up to a parent.
I'm trying to grasp your point, Jon.

Is it that paying more taxes would change the attitude of the average voter? That the change from paying more $$ would be one of caring more and supporting the gov't as a result?

I agree with the point that an attitude change is needed for many americans, not just the average one. How to generate that kind of change is a ongoing discussion, IMO.

My household income places me in the 5 quintile, and I feel like I get the living sh!t taxed out of me from all directions...and I live in a state w/no income tax!!

Would you care to elaborate on how paying more in taxes would affect a person's attitude?
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
It won't FR.

He just wants to increase the taxes on the people to appease his god which is the government.
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
I'm trying to address the agency problem, whereby a majority of people can vote for government services thinking (rightly) that someone else will have to pay for them.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
No your not. You just want people to be beholden to the government in an ever increasing manner through intrusive taxation.
Edited by Mark, Apr 12 2010, 10:00 AM.
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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
I won't comment on Jon's motives, but it seems that there are better ways to get people to understand that they are indeed paying for those services that they vote for.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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Red Rice
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Free Rider
Apr 12 2010, 09:54 AM
Would you care to elaborate on how paying more in taxes would affect a person's attitude?
It would turn you into a Republican! :P
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
I would question the motives of my own mother if she ever called for a tax increase!
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Free Rider
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jon-nyc
Apr 12 2010, 09:56 AM
I'm trying to address the agency problem, whereby a majority of people can vote for government services thinking (rightly) that someone else will have to pay for them.
Oh. Why do you call it an "agency problem"?

You said, "a majority of people can vote for government services thinking (rightly) that someone else will have to pay for them."

You can't vote for a gov't program...you can vote for elected officials like councilmen and representatives, etc. that "promise" something like a gov't program...however broken campaign promises are common...didn't Bill Clinton say he would reform healthcare? At the time I was in the "starving" catagory and I was happy about the prospect of gov't healthcare. Never happened.

How would someone behave if they were "responsible stewards" of the government? That sounds very abstract. Maybe send a letter with your (increased) taxes that says, "Dear Uncle Sam...don't waste this hard-earned $$ on fancy hotels and dancing girls...maybe build a school or something, OK?"

Conversely what does behaving like a supplicant or a child towards the gov't look like? Hanging around a welfare office all day begging for more money to play video games? Voting for anyone and anything resembling a handout? Maybe whining and crying on the internet about how we deserve MORE from our gov't?

I am not trying to be facietous, Jon, I'm maybe looking for more specifics about what the change you want would look like.

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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Piano*Dad
Apr 12 2010, 09:30 AM
To the extent that foreigners now hold a large portfolio, we will wind up taxing ourselves to pay foreign debt holders in the future.
I suspect a significant portion of it will be "paid" by devaluation of the USD. Can we model that erosion of the currency's purchasing power as a "tax" and see how that affects the tax burden distribution picture?
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
It is a tax Ax. An insidious and hidden tax.
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Mark
Apr 12 2010, 09:59 AM
You just want people to be beholden to the government in an ever increasing manner through intrusive taxation.
Man, you can see right through me!
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
Yep! Now get back to what really matters in this life.

Be a dad.

Stop worrying about money. Especially other people's money. :tongue:
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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Free Rider
Apr 12 2010, 10:16 AM
You can't vote for a gov't program...you can vote for elected officials like councilmen and representatives, etc. that "promise" something like a gov't program...however broken campaign promises are common...didn't Bill Clinton say he would reform healthcare?
Right, but the promises would be less attractive (or at the very least, people's reactions to them would be better thought out) if huge swathes of the electorate didn't view them as 'free'.


In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Free Rider
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Fulla-Carp
jon-nyc
Apr 12 2010, 10:26 AM
Free Rider
Apr 12 2010, 10:16 AM
You can't vote for a gov't program...you can vote for elected officials like councilmen and representatives, etc. that "promise" something like a gov't program...however broken campaign promises are common...didn't Bill Clinton say he would reform healthcare?
Right, but the promises would be less attractive (or at the very least, people's reactions to them would be better thought out) if huge swathes of the electorate didn't view them as 'free'.


OK, what if we did somehow end up with people being wary of Gov't spending and casting votes for fiscal conservatives.

Is the the end to this means (of higher taxes)?



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jon-nyc
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Cheers
I suspect it would be, but that's not the origin of my position.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Free Rider
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jon-nyc
Apr 12 2010, 10:33 AM
I suspect it would be, but that's not the origin of my position.
What is the origin of your position?
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
Kincaid
Apr 12 2010, 10:09 AM
I won't comment on Jon's motives, but it seems that there are better ways to get people to understand that they are indeed paying for those services that they vote for.
I suspect that the emotion and perception based agency problem would be more effectively addressed if we eliminated all of the accounting sleight of hand we use for collecting taxes. No more witholding, no more splitting FICA between employer and employee in some lame attempt to pretend the employee isn't paying all of it. Making people write big checks to the treasury on a regular basis would go a long way towards changing perception And we wouldn't even have to raise taxes.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Horace
Apr 12 2010, 11:00 AM
Kincaid
Apr 12 2010, 10:09 AM
I won't comment on Jon's motives, but it seems that there are better ways to get people to understand that they are indeed paying for those services that they vote for.
I suspect that the emotion and perception based agency problem would be more effectively addressed if we eliminated all of the accounting sleight of hand we use for collecting taxes. No more witholding, no more splitting FICA between employer and employee in some lame attempt to pretend the employee isn't paying all of it. Making people write big checks to the treasury on a regular basis would go a long way towards changing perception And we wouldn't even have to raise taxes.
If it's that simple, then the crux of the problem is not the "Agency Problem," but that of stoooopidity.

If the average voter cannot see through such simple sleight-of-hand as "withholding" and "employer's part" of FICA/Medicare, how do you expect that average voter to appreciate the nuanced interconnectivity among taxation, government spending, value of services rendered by the government, and entitlement liabilities? At some point, you're going to have to ask: "Has America grown too complicated for the average voter to grasp?"
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Making people write big checks has a way of bringing it home.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Speaking as one who writes big checks.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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