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Why we need a middle-class tax increase
Topic Started: Apr 11 2010, 04:50 PM (1,313 Views)
John Galt
Fulla-Carp
jon-nyc
Apr 12 2010, 05:58 AM
PhJ
Apr 12 2010, 05:40 AM
I suspect it's how things are in Belgium.. (not sure if I should laugh or cry.. :silly: )
Top marginal rate (50%) kicks in at 32.860 EUR of taxable income (against 357.700 $ in the US (at 35%)).
Add to that a 21% VAT, and you have paradise.
Have you considered moving here ? :D



Ha. At least you get health care for your troubles.

THe disparity isn't as great as you think - I pay 47.62% in income tax - 35% fed, 8.97% NYS, 3.65% NYC. Add to that a payroll tax of a little over 1.5% and that puts me just under 50% in effective income tax.

We don't have VAT (yet) but the sales tax here is 8.5%.
How do property taxes fit into the picture for those that own their own homes?

I share RR's frustration (I assume she is referring to her property tax bill), and have started looking at my town's budget on a line by line basis and showing up at budget hearings to put my two cents in.

It is amazing how much the staff doesn't think through what they are spending money on. In our town, we were spending $5000 a year on bottled water with the Village logo on it. We get our water from Lake Michigan (it's delicious). And the Village has a budget deficit. :doh:

Unfortunately, the population as whole seems to be woefully undereducated when it comes to skills relating to financial management, personal and otherwise.

Let us begin anew, remembering on both sides that civility is not a sign of weakness.
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Re property taxes, I was specifically referring to federal expenditures and taxation. I definitely think the same principle should hold at the state level however.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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CHAS
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Middle Aged Carp
We should keep this thread to use in case jon-nyc ever thinks of running for office. :)
"You want to be Nice, or you want to be Effective? Make the law or be subject to it?"-Roy Cohn
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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
jon-nyc
Apr 12 2010, 02:40 AM
ivorythumper
Apr 11 2010, 11:18 PM
No doubt Jon has carefully calculated his own tax situation and decided that the increase should only affect folks below his income level.
This proposal isn't about lowering my own taxes, its about raising them on the middle class. (really on the 'average voter').

I'm fine with paying much higher taxes than the average voter. I just think its important for the health of our democracy that the average voter pay the average tax.

Specifically, the attitude of the average voter toward his government should be that of a responsible steward, not that of a supplicant or child looking up to a parent.
+ 1
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
RosemaryTwo
Apr 12 2010, 05:44 AM
We just got our tax bill today.

I am angry and frustrated.
Property or income tax?

I got an unexpected income tax refund this year, mainly because of my job change. I try to keep to keep the amount owed/owing as close to zero as possible.

My property tax seems to defy logic. According to the assessment, my property is continuing to increase in value at the same rate as it did during the real estate bubble.
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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John Galt
Fulla-Carp
Red Rice
Apr 12 2010, 07:13 AM
RosemaryTwo
Apr 12 2010, 05:44 AM
We just got our tax bill today.

I am angry and frustrated.
Property or income tax?

I got an unexpected income tax refund this year, mainly because of my job change. I try to keep to keep the amount owed/owing as close to zero as possible.

My property tax seems to defy logic. According to the assessment, my property is continuing to increase in value at the same rate as it did during the real estate bubble.
We always file an assessment appeal. It is usually easy to claim "lack of uniformity" if you can find a similar property to yours that is assessed for less. In those areas where values are determined by actual sales (ours are not so direct), you may need to get an appraisal to prove your home isn't worth the amount assessed.

Let us begin anew, remembering on both sides that civility is not a sign of weakness.
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
jon-nyc
Apr 11 2010, 04:50 PM
I mean generally speaking, I don't mean right now.


Posted Image

In my view that 'middle quintile' should represent right around 20% of total income tax receipts. I'm happy to have the top quintile pay more so that the bottom two quintiles pay less, but having the median income household pay the average tax bill will prevent the agency problem which plagues our democracy and our fiscal situation.

(i'm happy to add in payroll tax in the total, which I'm sure is omitted in this graph)
The other way to go about addressing this is to have narrower income disparities. I know Japan is famous for not paying their executives as much as america, i wonder what a similar chart for them would look like.

Somehow I doubt having 50k HH income families pay a couple thousand more in income taxes per year will have any effect on voting patterns. Since we're talking about emotion-based attitudes and the agency problem, I suspect anybody making 50k do not feel undertaxed, nor do they feel like the government is spending money that is not theirs. I suspect that is a problem with those who pay no income tax, but that is not a middle quintile scenario.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Piano*Dad
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Bull-Carp
I think the issue is not really about making middle class families pay 1 or 2 K more in taxes. It's about linking the size of government on into the future to the amount of taxes that the middle income family will pay. Once that link is more firmly established, I think it is not at all unreasonable to think that voting patterns will be affected. Once people are clear that a bigger government will mean more taxes on them (instead of on those rich 'others') then people are more likely to weigh programs with more care. In fact, I'm equally concerned not to drop poor people completely off the tax rolls. Everyone should have some positive tax liability linked to the general treasury. This is what thoroughly gets at the agency issue.
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jon-nyc
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Piano*Dad
Apr 12 2010, 07:45 AM
(instead of on those rich 'others')
Remember David, this is a bi-partisan problem To simplify, one party's vice is to fob the responsibility on rich others, the other on yet-to-be-born others.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
jon-nyc
Apr 12 2010, 07:50 AM
Remember David, this is a bi-partisan problem To simplify, one party's vice is to fob the responsibility on rich others
And to loudly and proudly promise to do so.
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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jon-nyc
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Red Rice
Apr 12 2010, 07:57 AM
jon-nyc
Apr 12 2010, 07:50 AM
Remember David, this is a bi-partisan problem To simplify, one party's vice is to fob the responsibility on rich others, the other on yet-to-be-born others.
And to loudly and proudly promise to do so.
I'd hate to see you quote me out of context and change the meaning.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
John Galt
Apr 12 2010, 07:21 AM
We always file an assessment appeal. It is usually easy to claim "lack of uniformity" if you can find a similar property to yours that is assessed for less. In those areas where values are determined by actual sales (ours are not so direct), you may need to get an appraisal to prove your home isn't worth the amount assessed.

I did get an appraiser out late last year (we were contemplating selling since our primary residence is now in a different country), and we're using her assessment in our appeal.
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
jon-nyc
Apr 12 2010, 07:59 AM
Red Rice
Apr 12 2010, 07:57 AM
jon-nyc
Apr 12 2010, 07:50 AM
Remember David, this is a bi-partisan problem To simplify, one party's vice is to fob the responsibility on rich others, the other on yet-to-be-born others.
And to loudly and proudly promise to do so.
I'd hate to see you quote me out of context and change the meaning.
I'd hate to see that too, but the point I was making was to emphasize how a one party actively encourages the disconnect between big government and higher taxes in targeting its intended audience. And come to think of it, both parties are relying on yet-to-be-born others. So your original meaning and context are ultimately incorrect anyway.
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
First of all jon, the government has to give a sh!t about what the people want in the first place. The Federal Government of the US is no longer of, by and for the people. It is of, by and for itself.

Your idea that the government will shrink if they just raise taxes is ludicrous. It is never going to happen no matter what the tax rate is on any "group"

You cannot be a steward of something as out of control as our federal government. You can only be a serf.
___.___
(_]===*
o 0
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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brenda
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..............
Piano*Dad
Apr 12 2010, 07:45 AM
I think the issue is not really about making middle class families pay 1 or 2 K more in taxes. It's about linking the size of government on into the future to the amount of taxes that the middle income family will pay. Once that link is more firmly established, I think it is not at all unreasonable to think that voting patterns will be affected. Once people are clear that a bigger government will mean more taxes on them (instead of on those rich 'others') then people are more likely to weigh programs with more care. In fact, I'm equally concerned not to drop poor people completely off the tax rolls. Everyone should have some positive tax liability linked to the general treasury. This is what thoroughly gets at the agency issue.
:uparrow: :uparrow: :uparrow:
“Weeds are flowers, too, once you get to know them.”
~A.A. Milne
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jon-nyc
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Red Rice
Apr 12 2010, 08:10 AM
I'd hate to see that too, but the point I was making was to emphasize how a one party actively encourages the disconnect between big government and higher taxes in targeting its intended audience.
True, but the other party actively discourages voters from making the connection between lower taxes and higher deficits (since they are only for spending cuts when not in the majority).

In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
jon-nyc
Apr 12 2010, 04:28 AM
I'm not trying to make some generic point about our tax system being too progressive. I'm not saying a thing about tax rates being too high at the top.

Rather, the point is that - for the health of the democracy - we should have households at the median national income pay the average tax amount (not rate). Anything less and you create an agency problem which fundamentally alters the relationship between citizen and government. As I said before, the goal is that the attitude of the average voter toward his government be that of a responsible steward, not that of a supplicant or child looking up to a parent.
It sounds to me like you are really talking about the perception. I make just under $70k and my wife earns just under $60k. Not sure which Quintile that makes us, but in any case I know I feel overtaxed. I suppose there are many in the lower quintiles, always getting a full refund or (god forbid) getting more money than they were taxed thru Earned Income Credits that have an agency problem.

I would think that citizens in that situation would step out of the role of supplicant or child if we only changed how we are taxed.

No more automatic deductions. Make everyone in the U.S. pay all those payroll taxes, FICA and what not every quarter. Make them sit down and write out checks to the Feds, their State and local gov'ts quarterly and just watch them take a very keen interest in how their gov't is being run.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
jon-nyc
Apr 12 2010, 08:56 AM
Red Rice
Apr 12 2010, 08:10 AM
I'd hate to see that too, but the point I was making was to emphasize how a one party actively encourages the disconnect between big government and higher taxes in targeting its intended audience.
True, but the other party actively discourages voters from making the connection between lower taxes and higher deficits (since they are only for spending cuts when not in the majority).

Agreed. I wouldn't trust the Republicans to run a lemonade stand.
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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brenda
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..............
Red Rice
Apr 12 2010, 08:10 AM
jon-nyc
Apr 12 2010, 07:59 AM
Red Rice
Apr 12 2010, 07:57 AM
jon-nyc
Apr 12 2010, 07:50 AM
Remember David, this is a bi-partisan problem To simplify, one party's vice is to fob the responsibility on rich others, the other on yet-to-be-born others.
And to loudly and proudly promise to do so.
I'd hate to see you quote me out of context and change the meaning.
I'd hate to see that too, but the point I was making was to emphasize how a one party actively encourages the disconnect between big government and higher taxes in targeting its intended audience. And come to think of it, both parties are relying on yet-to-be-born others. So your original meaning and context are ultimately incorrect anyway.
Yes, RR is correct here.

Thank you, PD. Thank you , RR.

Jon, your point is still valid, despite some tweaking as noted here, and I thank you for a good thread.

And Mark is also correct to note that this should lead to smaller government. Whether it would is another good, but separate, discussion point.

What a smart bunch we have here today! :wave:

Gotta go to work! TTFN.
“Weeds are flowers, too, once you get to know them.”
~A.A. Milne
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jon-nyc
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brenda
Apr 12 2010, 08:59 AM
Yes, RR is correct here.
Rather than always playing unelected judge, why not offer some of your own analysis now and then?


(don't take that the wrong way, I mean it in a good way - you have an interesting background, you should offer your opinions in a form other than a nod of the head)
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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brenda
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..............
jon-nyc
Apr 12 2010, 09:00 AM
brenda
Apr 12 2010, 08:59 AM
Yes, RR is correct here.
Rather than always playing unelected judge, why not offer some of your own opinions now and then?
Jon, I got here after all the good points were made. So sorry I wasn't here sooner, but I thank you for the thread anyway.
“Weeds are flowers, too, once you get to know them.”
~A.A. Milne
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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
It's easy to b!tch, but the solution will be (and must be) painful.

http://money.cnn.com/2010/04/12/news/economy/reducing_defict/index.htm
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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brenda
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..............
jon-nyc
Apr 12 2010, 09:00 AM
brenda
Apr 12 2010, 08:59 AM
Yes, RR is correct here.
Rather than always playing unelected judge, why not offer some of your own analysis now and then?


(don't take that the wrong way, I mean it in a good way - you have an interesting background, you should offer your opinions in a form other than a nod of the head)
Jon, thanks, too, for your addendum. You are a sweetheart to say that. Now I really have to go to work! :wave:

“Weeds are flowers, too, once you get to know them.”
~A.A. Milne
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brenda
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..............
Jon, one quick thought: Who has the political will to initiate your concept? There's the tough part of the equation.

One other thought: You might want to be careful about this flirtation you seem to be having with some conservative ideas. ;) You wear them well, though, so don't walk away from them.

And this is why I like you, Jon. :)
“Weeds are flowers, too, once you get to know them.”
~A.A. Milne
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jon-nyc
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Re political will, probably no one. Both parties have conditioned much of their supporters that they needn't pay for government.

Re 'flirtation', I have been a fiscal conservative my whole life.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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