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Hey Aqua - Net Neutrality; Appeals court says FCC cannot regulate broadband
Topic Started: Apr 6 2010, 08:56 PM (462 Views)
Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Link: Article
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Another Article.
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Mark
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Good!
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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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Aqua Letifer
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Mark
Apr 6 2010, 09:34 PM
Good!
Ironically Mark, the FCC is trying to regulate the internet by keeping it open. The sort of **** that the industry's trying to get away with would make it a lot more restrictive, not less, and that's what the FCC is trying to prevent.

I have a feeling you say "good," because you just plain don't like the FCC (or more than that you just hate the government.) If the situation was reversed, and it was the FCC fighting against net neutrality and the industry was fighting for it, I'd be surprised to hear your opinion change any.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Mark
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You trust the government.

I do not.
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Aqua Letifer
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Mark
Apr 7 2010, 08:35 AM
You trust the government.

I do not.
Yeah but that's not even relevant here. This has absolutely nothing to do with my trust or distrust in the government.

I'm an adamant believer in net neutrality. If it was the industry supporting this and the FCC trying to keep it from happening, I'd be rallying against the FCC not ISPs and other service providers.

But as it turns out, the FCC's position is much closer to my own so yes, I think this ****ing sucks and I can only hope Congress steps in and gives them more responsibility so that they can keep the internet as open as possible to as many people as possible.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Mark
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The cables and infrastructure that connect us to the internet DO NOT BELONG TO THE GOVERNMENT!
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Aqua Letifer
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Mark
Apr 7 2010, 09:23 AM
The cables and infrastructure that connect us to the internet DO NOT BELONG TO THE GOVERNMENT!
I never said they did? And what's more I don't think the government has ever said that either.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Mark
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So why do you insist they have power over them?

Our government is too powerful as it is.

Let's just give them even more?

No thank you!
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JBryan
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I really don't have any particular problem with the FCC. I deal with them on an almost daily basis. I am not, however, convinced that forcing internet providers and carriers to offer the same access to all comers and not allow them to sell bandwidth according to willingness to pay is necessarily a good thing.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Aqua Letifer
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Mark
Apr 7 2010, 09:27 AM
So why do you insist they have power over them?

Our government is too powerful as it is.

Let's just give them even more?

No thank you!
Did you read what I posted previously? I want them to regulate the internet to keep it free and open, not to "have power" over it. I want them to use their power to hold the doors open, not let ISPs get selective with their service, which is exactly what they want to do. The FCC is trying to step in to keep this from happening.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Mark
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The ISPs have the right to get selective with their service!

WTF? The are the companies that took the risks and built this stuff.

They should be able to market it as they see fit.

Period.
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Aqua Letifer
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Mark
Apr 7 2010, 09:41 AM
The ISPs have the right to get selective with their service!

WTF? The are the companies that took the risks and built this stuff.

They should be able to market it as they see fit.

Period.
Okay see that in my opinion is at least a valid argument.

I disagree though, because they only commercialized what was already available. ISPs didn't create or invent the internet, they only brought it to more places. That's why I don't think they should have free reign over its access.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Mark
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It's their cable.

It's their bandwidth.

Leave them alone.
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Aqua Letifer
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Mark
Apr 7 2010, 09:57 AM
It's their cable.

It's their bandwidth.

Leave them alone.
It's not nearly that simple.

It also has to do with the flow and control of data. Do you want your ISPs deciding which websites load for you and which time out? I hear you're not a fan of Microsoft. Would you want your ISP to make a deal with them to allow Bing to be the only search engine that loads without restraints? Do you want your availability to internet access to be limited and dependent upon which ISP you subscribe to?

I cite irreconcilable differences.
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The 89th Key
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Mark, while I agree private companies should be able to do what they want (as long as they aren't harming anyone), do you believe there should even be an FCC? Should there be any regulation at all?
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Aqua Letifer
Apr 7 2010, 10:03 AM
Mark
Apr 7 2010, 09:57 AM
It's their cable.

It's their bandwidth.

Leave them alone.
It's not nearly that simple.

It also has to do with the flow and control of data. Do you want your ISPs deciding which websites load for you and which time out? I hear you're not a fan of Microsoft. Would you want your ISP to make a deal with them to allow Bing to be the only search engine that loads without restraints? Do you want your availability to internet access to be limited and dependent upon which ISP you subscribe to?

It is not entirely clear that any company would do that and retain any sort of market share. We already have anti-trust and anti-monopoly legislation on the books if it comes to that but what you are describing is not even particularly smart from a business perspective.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
The 89th Key
Apr 7 2010, 10:05 AM
Mark, while I agree private companies should be able to do what they want (as long as they aren't harming anyone), do you believe there should even be an FCC? Should there be any regulation at all?
I think the FCC is a waste of taxpayer money.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Actually, we would be in a world of hurt if we just let people throw up radio transmitters on any frequency they like and point microwave antennas wherever they needed to with no coordination at all so if we don't have an FCC how would we do that?
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Mark
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I thought you would say that.

And yes, there needs to be some laws about that.

But not an entire governmental agency.
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Aqua Letifer
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JBryan
Apr 7 2010, 10:08 AM
It is not entirely clear that any company would do that and retain any sort of market share. We already have anti-trust and anti-monopoly legislation on the books if it comes to that but what you are describing is not even particularly smart from a business perspective.
Well I don't think it would get that problematic (although legally I don't think it would be impossible), I was just using an extreme to point out that it's not just about who owns the cable. There are other things that have to be considered.

There are thousands of milder issues that are much more likely to come up if the FCC (or anyone else) cannot ensure net neutrality.

For example, I think it's entirely ****ing criminal for ISPs to advertise a specific service, with no mention at all of their methods they use to keep you from receiving this service. If they advertise for 10 Mbps bandwidth, how is it legal for them to NOT offer this amount in the form of traffic shaping and monthly data caps, when these things aren't even mentioned in the contract you sign with your ISP? I don't care at all about the realities of what the network can handle, if you can't make good on your advertisements then you're acting criminally.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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JBryan
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Quote:
 
I thought you would say that.

And yes, there needs to be some laws about that.

But not an entire governmental agency.


Laws will not accomplish frequency coordination. At least not without some agency to implement them.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Aqua Letifer
Apr 7 2010, 10:18 AM
For example, I think it's entirely ****ing criminal for ISPs to advertise a specific service, with no mention at all of their methods they use to keep you from receiving this service. If they advertise for 10 Mbps bandwidth, how is it legal for them to NOT offer this amount in the form of traffic shaping and monthly data caps, when these things aren't even mentioned in the contract you sign with your ISP? I don't care at all about the realities of what the network can handle, if you can't make good on your advertisements then you're acting criminally.
That doesn't sound like an issue net neutrality even addresses. That is just plain old froaud and something the Commission does frown on rather sternly. They may not be doing enough about it but itseems a separate issue from net neutrality.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
JBryan
Apr 7 2010, 10:21 AM
Aqua Letifer
Apr 7 2010, 10:18 AM
For example, I think it's entirely ****ing criminal for ISPs to advertise a specific service, with no mention at all of their methods they use to keep you from receiving this service. If they advertise for 10 Mbps bandwidth, how is it legal for them to NOT offer this amount in the form of traffic shaping and monthly data caps, when these things aren't even mentioned in the contract you sign with your ISP? I don't care at all about the realities of what the network can handle, if you can't make good on your advertisements then you're acting criminally.
That doesn't sound like an issue net neutrality even addresses. That is just plain old froaud and something the Commission does frown on rather sternly. They may not be doing enough about it but itseems a separate issue from net neutrality.
It happens all the time. And when companies are asked about it, they lie about it. (These days I think Comcast is still in the lead for who does this stuff the most.) My own ISP is doing it right now and there's nothing I or anyone else can do about it, in my opinion because the FCC doesn't really have any teeth.

I consider it a net neutrality issue, though, since I consider anything pertaining to limiting internet access to be a net neutrality issue. Might be bad nomenclature on my part but eh, that's how I group it up.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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The 89th Key
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Mark
Apr 7 2010, 10:11 AM
The 89th Key
Apr 7 2010, 10:05 AM
Mark, while I agree private companies should be able to do what they want (as long as they aren't harming anyone), do you believe there should even be an FCC? Should there be any regulation at all?
I think the FCC is a waste of taxpayer money.
I agree, but I think a modicum of regulation is needed in the industries of broadcasting, commerce, food and drug, etc. The FCC, like every other government agency, could be cut by 75% and do the same job if they were in the private sector. So I agree they are a waste of money, but their oversight is needed (perhaps at a different level of involvement) in the communication sector.
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