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| Yet Another Question for the Pope | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 15 2010, 09:53 AM (421 Views) | |
| jon-nyc | Mar 15 2010, 09:53 AM Post #1 |
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Cheers
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So this whole secrecy/damage control strategy, how's that working out for you guys? |
| In my defense, I was left unsupervised. | |
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| Phlebas | Mar 15 2010, 12:55 PM Post #2 |
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Bull-Carp
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They should drop the pretense, and follow the lead of their Renaissance predecessors. They had a lot more fun anyway. |
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Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D | |
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| CHAS | Mar 15 2010, 01:19 PM Post #3 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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LOL Was Leo the Pope who liked hunting boars and had little boys popping out of cakes naked at lavish dinners? Had a thing for little boys. Nothing new these days. |
| "You want to be Nice, or you want to be Effective? Make the law or be subject to it?"-Roy Cohn | |
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| ivorythumper | Mar 15 2010, 01:27 PM Post #4 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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So Chas (and Jon and Phlebas, feel free to chime in as well), apart from the dictates of Christian morality, do you think there is anything intrinsically wrong with homosexual attraction to sexually maturing or mature adolescents, and sexual activity with them? Were the Greeks morally wrong for their practice of older men having homosexual sex with teenagers? I am just trying to figure out what your moral guidelines are here. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Axtremus | Mar 15 2010, 02:12 PM Post #5 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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To the extent that every one is stilling keeping their jobs in the church and staying out of jail, I'd say that the strategy is working pretty well, wouldn't you?
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| Big John | Mar 15 2010, 02:16 PM Post #6 |
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Senior Carp
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I was 11. I didn't even know what a pubic hair was so I don't think I (like the majority of the victims of your colleagues), fall into your pitiful attempt to categorize children as adolescents. It's almost like the equally pathetic way you try to categorize sperm as a child waiting for a school bus. |
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| ivorythumper | Mar 15 2010, 02:58 PM Post #7 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Where again did I equate a sperm to a human being? Oh I didn't. You just make up stuff for whatever reason you make up stuff. I am genuinely sorry that you were molested as a child. I can understand why this has a particularly strong impact for you. But the fact is that the large majority of cases of sexual abuse by Catholic priests were against adolescent males, not pre sexual children. Regardless, they are heinous acts in my eyes, gross abuses of power, rightly seen as scandalous and hypocritical, and deserving of the full weight of the law upon anyone who committed the crimes or facilitated perpetrators. But these are mostly homosexual acts, not "pederasty" or "pedophilia". So the question remains if there is anything intrinsically wrong about that sort of homosexual behavior if it is with a younger sexually mature male? |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| CHAS | Mar 15 2010, 03:00 PM Post #8 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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If the victims are under the age of consent it is a crime. The criminal should be prosecuted, robes or not. |
| "You want to be Nice, or you want to be Effective? Make the law or be subject to it?"-Roy Cohn | |
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| ivorythumper | Mar 15 2010, 03:05 PM Post #9 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Is "age of consent" a purely legal definition? Could it in one culture be the same as "the age of reason" (the point of development of conscience to know the difference between right and wrong), and in another culture be the same as the age of sexual maturation (puberty), and in another culture be the age of emancipation? What objectively is this age of consent? But again, the question does not have to do with the law, but it has to with whether you think there is anything intrinsically wrong with homosexual attraction to sexually maturing or mature adolescents, and sexual activity with them? Were the Greeks morally wrong for their practice of older men having homosexual sex with teenagers? |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Renauda | Mar 15 2010, 03:18 PM Post #10 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Straw man argument IT. The morality of ancient Greece is no more relevant here than the morality of ancient Israel. We are talking specifically about the post Vatican II Church and its present hierarchy. I think you're beginning to run out of obfuscation and spin trying to defend the indefensible. |
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| Big John | Mar 15 2010, 03:21 PM Post #11 |
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Senior Carp
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IT: I meant a zygote. The greeks were not wrong to practice homosexuality. It was a cultural thing and it was all out in the open. Everyone knew about it and it was socially acceptable in the context of the society. History does not teach me that Greeks made their victims sign oaths of silence or that they murdered or tortured their young charges.
Name your source. Do they keep records? You are perverted filth to even try to justify this behavior by implying that there is some acceptable baseline ratio of victims by AGE. These are people who are supposed to celibate. Does the AGE of the victim somehow excuse them from their oath of celibacy? |
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| ivorythumper | Mar 15 2010, 03:38 PM Post #12 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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So it is OK for a Greek man in the 500 BC to seduce and have sex with a 14 year old, but it is not for a modern person? Because it is "in the open" and a cultural norm? So you have nothing intrinsically against sex with teenagers, apart from late day bourgeois conventions? OK. Thanks for clarifying that. I don't know of anyone who does either of those things. I already have previously referred folks here --including you -- to the John Jay Report, as investigated by the John Jay School of Criminal Justice at the City University of New York. You obviously are not interested in a real discussion here, John. You attack me for defending something I am not defending, even while you failed to acknowledge that I wrote: "Regardless, they are heinous acts in my eyes, gross abuses of power, rightly seen as scandalous and hypocritical, and deserving of the full weight of the law upon anyone who committed the crimes or facilitated perpetrators. It is quite impossible to have a rational discussion with you if you cannot even give the benefit of consideration to what I am actually writing. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Big John | Mar 15 2010, 04:01 PM Post #13 |
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Senior Carp
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Your dissertation defense trick may work on a student where you stand between him and his Ph.D., but the "if you meant this, then you are such and such" trick doesn't work in the real world. Edited by Big John, Mar 15 2010, 04:03 PM.
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| ivorythumper | Mar 15 2010, 06:22 PM Post #14 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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It's no trick. It was the reasonable reading of your own words: "The greeks were not wrong to practice homosexuality. It was a cultural thing and it was all out in the open. Everyone knew about it and it was socially acceptable in the context of the society." Clearly we are not speaking of homosexuality in general but of relationships between older men and sexually mature adolescents. Do you think the Greeks were morally correct in that sort of socially coercive program simpy because it was all out in the open? Now a real "trick" would be what you did, which was to ignore what I actually wrote and call me "perverted filth" and accuse me of justifying something that I clearly was condemning. That would be a "trick" but even a dimwitted undergrad student should see right through that. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Big John | Mar 15 2010, 07:00 PM Post #15 |
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Senior Carp
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Putting words in someone else's mouth and then attacking them for it is not reasonable. But it's something I've come to expect from you because you do it with such enthusiasm. You like seeing people suffer. You are a bully and that was established long, long ago. Greek civilization collapsed long ago. That was the price they paid for their culture. What I think of what they did is merely a distraction. Why you are fighting for sexual exploitation in 2010 by diluting it into context of a pagan civilization that thought the world was flat is a cause for great concern. Your flat-world pagan cult will collapse too. It's in its death spiral right now. |
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| ivorythumper | Mar 15 2010, 08:51 PM Post #16 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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I am a bully? The comment IIRC originated with Quirt, then Phlebas chimed in, and maybe Daniel, Hobie and JJJS, and now you. All because I simply don't accept the load of nonsense someone was peddling and I called them on it. The common denominator seems to be politics, not manners since all of them regularly engaged in cyber fisticuffs. So, call the whaaaaambluance or put on your big girl panties and get over it. Now if you want to actually talk about something, I agree with you that it was wrong for you to attack me after you ignored what I said and put words in my mouth about justifying grotesque behavior that I was condemning. And I forgive you. If I misunderstood your remarks about Greece, I apologize but it seemed a reasonable inference based on what you wrote -- seeming approvingly of the ancient Greek practice. If you are not saying that, it was not clear from what you wrote. Now you seem to be saying that Greek civilization collapsed as a result of their culture? OK, does that have anything to do with institutionalized homosexual sex with young men who were presumably socially coerced to be available to older men? (I am not sure what you mean by "distraction"). And I have no idea what you mean by saying that I am fighting for sexual exploitation in 2010. I am merely trying to figure out what the real basis is for all this animosity against the Church because some of the priests and leaders do not live up to their Christian vocation. Is it the abuse of power, or the act of homosexual relations with younger men? Or is it that the Church is following the teachings of 2000 years of Christian tradition about the matter which does judge homosexual acts along with other sex sins as morally wrong, and not changing it for modern convenience? For me the first two reason should be (and are) grounds for disdain, but I am trying to figure out where you all are on this. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Big John | Mar 15 2010, 09:51 PM Post #17 |
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Senior Carp
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Tell it to Miss Janine.
Edited by Big John, Mar 15 2010, 09:53 PM.
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