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"Planned Commercial Residential"
Topic Started: Mar 14 2010, 08:18 PM (322 Views)
Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
A house I'm considering is on a block that is zoned for "planned commercial residential". I googled that phrase and was taken right to my little city's website, so either it's a new idea or an old one that they've renamed. The idea is to allow residences to use their first floor for businesses of some kind, and the top floors for residence. This is supposed to help with commutes and energy use and that sort of thing. I like it in theory, but wonder about the potential effects on the neighborhood and property values. Currently, that block is about half business/residences and half pure residences. The businesses are almost all real estate offices. Not sure exactly what they do, but they have real estate signage in front.

The house I'm looking at was built and originally sold about 4 years ago. The buyers had a "pet photography" business on the first of the three floors. Oddly enough, that business didn't bring in enough money to pay the mortgage so now it's a short sale, and the new buyer has to pay large sums to the original lenders to close the sale. And the carpet smells like dog piss.

Which all explains why the house is on the market for such a low price...

It seems like a pretty good investment, but I'm slightly worried about the wildcard of being neighbors with businesses. The zoning regs aren't particular except for some language about sound and light limitations during non-business hours. Anybody have any words of wisdom?
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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JoeB
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Quote:
 
Anybody have any words of wisdom?


You could end up wasting a lot of time on trying to buy a "short sale" because banks seem to be unable to make up their minds whether to allow a short sale or hold out for more money. I know one couple who wasted 6 months working with a bank who never could actually decide what they wanted for the property. It is usually simpler to buy the property after it is foreclosed on. YMMV
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Steve Miller
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Quote:
 
Anybody have any words of wisdom?


They've built several of those in Anaheim.

They have not sold well.

YMMV.
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ivorythumper
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Rick Zimmer would be the guy for this, but in general PCR would indicate a more urban mixed use neighborhood -- either in a typical older city or in a New Urbanism development. I'd guess that zoning is all over the region you live in. It's the sort of thing that allows for you to have easy walking distance to your local restaurant, bookstore, bicycle shop, rolfing studio, Berkenstock shop, and Peet's Coffee. I can understand your concern if they are a bunch of uninteresting businesses, but I'd guess that the potential price stability of the mixed use zoning is better than a single use zoning. I'd be interested in things like designated parking, outdoor private space (like a roof garden), setbacks, sunlight and views, and business regulations (not sure I'd want to live next to an after hours night club).
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ivorythumper
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Concerning Steve's comment, I was assuming it was a developed older neighborhood. Is it a new area?
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Horace
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JoeB
Mar 14 2010, 08:51 PM
Quote:
 
Anybody have any words of wisdom?


You could end up wasting a lot of time on trying to buy a "short sale" because banks seem to be unable to make up their minds whether to allow a short sale or hold out for more money. I know one couple who wasted 6 months working with a bank who never could actually decide what they wanted for the property. It is usually simpler to buy the property after it is foreclosed on. YMMV
That's the rule of thumb regarding short sales, but about 60% of the inventory for sale in this area is short sales, so the banks are getting used to it and are getting streamlined processes in place. This property is a "pre-approved" short sale, for whatever that's worth. The sale price was agreed upon by the bank(s) previously, but the buyer balked at the closing costs, having to do with paying off a second lein holder. I'm not sure what the details of that are, but I know what the price to pay them off is: about 8% of the sale price. If I do buy this home, my closing costs will be astronomical, but the home price will be low compared to similar (identical even) homes in this neighborhood. And home price + closing costs will still be low comparitively.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Horace
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ivorythumper
Mar 14 2010, 09:56 PM
Rick Zimmer would be the guy for this, but in general PCR would indicate a more urban mixed use neighborhood -- either in a typical older city or in a New Urbanism development. I'd guess that zoning is all over the region you live in. It's the sort of thing that allows for you to have easy walking distance to your local restaurant, bookstore, bicycle shop, rolfing studio, Berkenstock shop, and Peet's Coffee. I can understand your concern if they are a bunch of uninteresting businesses, but I'd guess that the potential price stability of the mixed use zoning is better than a single use zoning. I'd be interested in things like designated parking, outdoor private space (like a roof garden), setbacks, sunlight and views, and business regulations (not sure I'd want to live next to an after hours night club).
I was hoping that would be the case - that the property values would be at least as stable as a pure residential neighborhood. I can see pros and cons both ways. The zoning regulations are laid out in some documents that I'm too lazy to read, but the decision to allow a certain business or not is ultimately up to the judgement of the authorities. I was encouraged to read what the authorities would take into account - whether the business was compatible with a residential neighborhood - so probably they won't be letting any night clubs in.

A block away, they are building a large parking structure. Not sure how that will change the complexion of the area, but currently there's nothing much there to park for, and lots of undeveloped land, so they must have something in mind.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Horace
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Steve Miller
Mar 14 2010, 09:14 PM
Quote:
 
Anybody have any words of wisdom?


They've built several of those in Anaheim.

They have not sold well.

YMMV.
The homes in this development have plummeted in value by about 40% since they were put on the market 5 years ago. At some point, they'll start selling...
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Horace
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ivorythumper
Mar 14 2010, 09:57 PM
Concerning Steve's comment, I was assuming it was a developed older neighborhood. Is it a new area?
Completely new, as of 5 years ago.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
It is the norm in higher density areas. Jane Jacobs would love them for it.


Not sure if Anaheim is the place for it, but in SF it should be fine.
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QuirtEvans
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Which area of San Francisco, Horace?

The thing I'd be concerned about is noise/traffic. A real estate office is relatively low on both. A coffee shop would be higher on noise, much higher on traffic. A restaurant would be worse, a bar even worse.

And it doesn't have to be YOUR house. I'd be worried if they were putting in a sports bar three doors down.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Dewey
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It's a good idea. When I was on our local zoning commission, I helped to write our version of it and get it into our code. It's a good idea in that it encourages work/live arrangements (which I'm not only supportive of, but actually engage in) and can help in making more "livable" neighborhoods that work with reduced dependence on cars, if there's enough utilization of the zoning, giving good diversity of commercial operations that the local residents need. It begins to break down a bit of the "ghetto-ization" into distinct areas that are only sfr's, or only retail, etc.

But because they are typically written to be very flexible, there can be a bit of the unknown in the code. You can't just read the zoning resolution and get a definitive, black and white answer to "what can I do - and more importantly, what *can't* my neighbor do?" That can make a person nervous, but remember the first word in the term. Every development or implementation of that zoning classification must be "planned" - in other words, any work/live arrangement that someone wants to implement in the district has to go before the zoning commission and individually be reviewed and approved, making sure that the commission/board is in agreement that the specifics of the nature of the business, parking, trash concerns, noise, etc., won't be detrimental to the overall neighborhood. In traditional zoning, anyone who met the definitive standards in the code for use, parking, setbacks, etc., could do whatever the black and white code allowed, whether anyone else liked it or not. It a PCR, essentially every plot becomes its own "boutique" zoning district, where the commission applies the principles/intents of the zoning code to the specifics of the application at hand. The zoning requirements typically get negotiated through a series of public hearings and meetings with the commission, where the zoning concerns or the particular mixed use get settled in a much more amorphous way than just cracking open the standard code.

So there's greater flexibility, there isn't much chance that the local zoning body is going to permit something that will hurt the overall community (especially since they obviously have a commitment to making a PCR succeed, or they wouldn't even have it as part of their code), and it can be a good thing to increase "livability." But getting a particular use approved through zoning will typically take longer because of the approval process, and as an applicant, you have much less of a spelled out set of requirements that you can rely on and preplan for.
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Qaanaaq-Liaaq
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What’s your tolerance level for noise and aggravation?

You’re going to have more of it if you live in an area with mixed commercial/residential zoning. If it’s a dog grooming shop, -> dogs yapping all the time, a restaurant -> exhaust fan fumes, a tavern -> the drunks will stagger out out at closing time hooting, hollering, and talking loud.

The parking situation will also be a source of aggravation. If there’s reserved off street parking for the residents only, the store patrons will park in them. Even if there's a sign posted warning that it's for residents only, the store patrons will park in them any way. It can be maddening.

I know. I once lived in a condo with stores at street level. I’d never do it again. Buy in a residential-only zoned area.
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QuirtEvans
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Qaanaaq-Liaaq
Mar 15 2010, 06:19 AM
What’s your tolerance level for noise and aggravation?

You’re going to have more of it if you live in an area with mixed commercial/residential zoning. If it’s a dog grooming shop, -> dogs yapping all the time, a restaurant -> exhaust fan fumes, a tavern -> the drunks will stagger out out at closing time hooting, hollering, and talking loud.

The parking situation will also be a source of aggravation. If there’s reserved off street parking for the residents only, the store patrons will park in them. Even if there's a sign posted warning that it's for residents only, the store patrons will park in them any way. It can be maddening.

I know. I once lived in a condo with stores at street level. I’d never do it again. Buy in a residential-only zoned area.
Hell, when I lived in San Francisco, I lived a couple of blocks straight uphill from a street full of shops, and the on-street parking was always filled up by people going to restaurants and circling around for spots.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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CHAS
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Hope you don't end up over a coffee shop.
I would be constantly wired from the caffeine and fat from the pastries.
"You want to be Nice, or you want to be Effective? Make the law or be subject to it?"-Roy Cohn
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ivorythumper
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QuirtEvans
Mar 15 2010, 06:29 AM
Hell, when I lived in San Francisco, I lived a couple of blocks straight uphill from a street full of shops, and the on-street parking was always filled up by people going to restaurants and circling around for spots.
North Beach, by any chance? Every trip to Columbus Street for Italian involved circling around for parking.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Horace
Mar 14 2010, 10:44 PM
ivorythumper
Mar 14 2010, 09:57 PM
Concerning Steve's comment, I was assuming it was a developed older neighborhood. Is it a new area?
Completely new, as of 5 years ago.
Assuming a well made building with double glazed windows, and sound from street traffic should not be a great concern. As long as you are buying well (at or below market) it's a lifestyle question more than an economic one. Can you share the google street view so we can get a feel for what you are looking at? (or PM?)
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Horace
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jon-nyc
Mar 15 2010, 03:30 AM
It is the norm in higher density areas. Jane Jacobs would love them for it.


Not sure if Anaheim is the place for it, but in SF it should be fine.
I think they're trying to plan for high density, but we're not there yet. And some of the city's development plans, specifically in that area, has been put on hold because the state's purse strings have become tight lately...
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
QuirtEvans
Mar 15 2010, 04:13 AM
Which area of San Francisco, Horace?
East bay, actually.

Quote:
 
The thing I'd be concerned about is noise/traffic. A real estate office is relatively low on both. A coffee shop would be higher on noise, much higher on traffic. A restaurant would be worse, a bar even worse.

And it doesn't have to be YOUR house. I'd be worried if they were putting in a sports bar three doors down.


Coffee shop or restaurant would be pretty cool to have within a half block! But I'm sure if it was next door it would be a disaster. These homes are called "duets", sort of like a duplex but sold separately. They share a wall. I'm told the sound proofing is very good but I don't know. It is something to think about. In fact the business that was in the home I'm considering was a "disaster" type home for the neighbor I'm sure. Barking dogs and foot traffic all day every day, if the business had managed to succeed.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
Dewey
Mar 15 2010, 04:14 AM
It's a good idea.
Thanks for the info Dewey, I appreciate your voice of experience from a planning commision standpoint. I do like the idea in theory, and would love to live within a block or two of lots of interesting businesses as long as the planning commision chooses low noise/annoyance types. I'd also be fine with the other option, which I think is possible, that the entire neighborhood will more or less discard the commercial aspect and it'll be almost entirely residential.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
CHAS
Mar 15 2010, 09:02 AM
Hope you don't end up over a coffee shop.
I would be constantly wired from the caffeine and fat from the pastries.
Only if I start a coffee shop... The units all contain every floor, so my first floor would be my business. (So to speak.)

I sort of hope someone starts a coffee shop though. I think that would be pretty cool, I love coffee shops.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
ivorythumper
Mar 15 2010, 01:58 PM
Horace
Mar 14 2010, 10:44 PM
ivorythumper
Mar 14 2010, 09:57 PM
Concerning Steve's comment, I was assuming it was a developed older neighborhood. Is it a new area?
Completely new, as of 5 years ago.
Assuming a well made building with double glazed windows, and sound from street traffic should not be a great concern. As long as you are buying well (at or below market) it's a lifestyle question more than an economic one. Can you share the google street view so we can get a feel for what you are looking at? (or PM?)
I agree, it's more a lifestyle thing. I'd walk away if, after I made an offer, the assessment indicated that I was bidding over market. In fact with the second lien holder payoff to close the deal, it'll have to assess at significantly more than my offer or I'd walk away.

The shared wall with a neighbor who might have a business is a little worrisome. Especially if it was a popular business on the weekends. Right now, the neighbor is pure residence.

Good idea about the street view, here it is:

[edit - just wanted to keep the link there for a short time.]


(Just looked up the zoning map; across the street from the future parking structure, diagonally adjacent block from the place I'm considering, is zoned "general commercial".)
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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