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Question for Ivorythumper and JoeB
Topic Started: Mar 13 2010, 10:36 AM (1,374 Views)
John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Big John
Mar 13 2010, 01:18 PM
But if you are willing to swear off sex for life, there has to be something SERIOUSLY wrong with you. It's the most unnatural notion humankind could ever cook up for other humans.
That's how I feel about vegetarians.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Quagmire
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Big John
Mar 13 2010, 01:18 PM

But if you are willing to swear off sex for life, there has to be something SERIOUSLY wrong with you. It's the most unnatural notion humankind could ever cook up for other humans.
+1 for sure.

Although, I have no doubt that its possible to achieve a state of enlightenment where one can transcend human need complacently, thats a very difficult journey and achieved by the very very few. It sure as hell aint the bulk of the catholic priesthood.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Quote:
 
That's how I feel about vegetarians.
:lol2:
Edited by Mikhailoh, Mar 13 2010, 01:28 PM.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Quagmire
Mar 13 2010, 01:25 PM
Although, I have no doubt that its possible to achieve a state of enlightenment where one can transcend human need complacently, thats a very difficult journey and achieved by the very very few. It sure as hell aint the bulk of the catholic priesthood.
Even the secular John Jay report indicated a perhaps 4.3% rate of abuse among Catholic priests -- indicating 95% are presumably faithful to their vows. Where do you get this "bulk" statement?
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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John D'Oh
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ivorythumper
Mar 13 2010, 01:32 PM
Quagmire
Mar 13 2010, 01:25 PM
Although, I have no doubt that its possible to achieve a state of enlightenment where one can transcend human need complacently, thats a very difficult journey and achieved by the very very few. It sure as hell aint the bulk of the catholic priesthood.
Even the secular John Jay report indicated a perhaps 4.3% rate of abuse among Catholic priests -- indicating 95% are presumably faithful to their vows. Where do you get this "bulk" statement?
Not to speak for Quaggy, but I doubt that the 95% are transcending their human need complacently. On the other hand, I'm not convinced that this a valid argument either for or against celibacy in the priesthood, which is a policy I suspect is likely to change over the next 2 or 3 decades.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Well, I won't get hung up on the phraseology "transcend human need complacently". I know hundreds of priests and several bishops, and in the vast majority they seem very well grounded emotionally and psychologically, and deal in entirely healthy ways with the human need for relationship and intimacy. Not without struggle, but I suspect that most of the men here would admit at least to themselves of the struggle even if they are married or in an exclusive relationship.

It is bizarre to say that giving up sex for life indicates that there is something seriously wrong with you. What it does indicate is that the person found something they value more than sex. A person making that claim seems to be saying that there is nothing more important than sex, which seems to be indicate a really unhealthy psychology.

The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
I've always suspected that a profession/lifestyle which outlaws sexuality might appeal to those who are ashamed of their own urges and want to flee from them.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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John D'Oh
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ivorythumper
Mar 13 2010, 01:56 PM
I suspect that most of the men here would admit at least to themselves of the struggle even if they are married or in an exclusive relationship.
Everyone except you and me, at least. :lol:
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
John D'Oh
Mar 13 2010, 01:58 PM
ivorythumper
Mar 13 2010, 01:56 PM
I suspect that most of the men here would admit at least to themselves of the struggle even if they are married or in an exclusive relationship.
Everyone except you and me, at least. :lol:
Of course, we married exceptionally well. :smokin:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Quagmire
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Horace
Mar 13 2010, 01:58 PM
I've always suspected that a profession/lifestyle which outlaws sexuality might appeal to those who are ashamed of their own urges and want to flee from them.
Particularly if they flee to a religion that teaches shame of the urges.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Which religion does that?
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Renauda
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ivorythumper
Mar 13 2010, 02:33 PM
Which religion does that?
Certainly not Christianity. Bastards have been ubiquitous amongst the laity and clergy since day one of the scam.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
QuirtEvans
Mar 13 2010, 11:20 AM
When you're through pillorying IT ... and, don't get me wrong, I always enjoy a good pillorying, particularly when IT is on the receiving end ... please go back and answer my questions.
Still waiting ...

I answered your questions, it seems fair to expect you to answer mine.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Quagmire
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Renauda
Mar 13 2010, 06:45 PM
Bastards have been ubiquitous amongst the laity...
And thats why the laity is a tramp.
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Renauda
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QuirtEvans
Mar 13 2010, 10:38 AM
Also, many laws that allow punishment of someone who knew about something bad that was going on are phrased in terms of "know or should have known". Wouldn't that concern you, particularly for someone who isn't a professional?
Do you not consider ordained clergy professionals?

I do.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Renauda
Mar 13 2010, 06:49 PM
QuirtEvans
Mar 13 2010, 10:38 AM
Also, many laws that allow punishment of someone who knew about something bad that was going on are phrased in terms of "know or should have known". Wouldn't that concern you, particularly for someone who isn't a professional?
Do you not consider ordained clergy professionals?

I do.
People who are professionals learn about things like abuse of a child in their professional capacity. Also, professionals are subject to professional standards of conduct.

It's an interesting question as to whether ordained clergy are "professionals". They certainly seem like professionals, but, then again, there are not uniform standards of conduct for the profession. A Catholic priest and a rabbi aren't really subject to the same rules ... while all lawyers, all accountants, all architects, and all doctors have a basic code of conduct for their profession.

So I guess, on balance, I'd lean toward saying they are professionals, but there are countervailing considerations that might suggest otherwise. So I'm not entirely sure.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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blondie
Bull-Carp
I don't know what it's like elsewhere, but it was my impression here in Alberta, that *any person* who knows of such abuse must report it.
[See page 108 and 91 of this for example: http://www.law.ualberta.ca/centres/hli/userfiles/renkefrm.pdf ]
I don't think anyone should stay mum over abuse. It's a citizen's duty to report this things. Protection of children is paramount.
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
QuirtEvans
Mar 13 2010, 06:54 PM
It's an interesting question as to whether ordained clergy are "professionals". They certainly seem like professionals, but, then again, there are not uniform standards of conduct for the profession. A Catholic priest and a rabbi aren't really subject to the same rules ... while all lawyers, all accountants, all architects, and all doctors have a basic code of conduct for their profession.

So I guess, on balance, I'd lean toward saying they are professionals, but there are countervailing considerations that might suggest otherwise. So I'm not entirely sure.
Don't ever think for a moment they're not professionals. They- protestants included- have 2000 years of honing their craft.
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Dewey
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I'm neither IT nor JoeB, but -

The legal requirements for clergy, and medical, educational and similar professionals, vary from state to state. That includes just what level of protection is afforded to private conversations with clergy. For example, here in Ohio:

If a person confesses to me that they committed a murder ten years ago, I have no legal obligation to report this information to the police - and while I would have a moral obligation to urge the person to turn himself in for the murder, I have a parallel moral obligation to preserve the integrity of the confidentiality of the parishioner/clergy relationship by not turning him in myself. This standard applies as long as I have no reason to believe the person is about to commit another murder or other crime. My right to preserve that confidentiality stops if I have reason to believe that someone is in imminent danger of being harmed by the confessor; in such a case I have a legal obligation to report him/her, and can go to jail if I don't report it.

The requirements in Ohio regarding to child abuse are somewhat different from those general requirements identified above. If I have any reason to suspect child abuse of any kind, I have a legal obligation to report it to the authorities - without exception. Further, if a person confessed to me that they had molested a child, I would be obligated by law to report them, even though it took place in a conversation that was otherwise covered under privileged conversation (in other words, if he'd just told me he killed someone ten years ago, I would be obligated to NOT report that, but if he told me in the next breath that he fondled his niece the previous week, I would be obligated to tell the authorities that he'd confessed to that). But again, the legal obligations vary somewhat from state to state.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
They certainly seem like professionals, but, then again, there are not uniform standards of conduct for the profession. A Catholic priest and a rabbi aren't really subject to the same rules ... while all lawyers, all accountants, all architects, and all doctors have a basic code of conduct for their profession.


All lawyers, all accountants, all architects, and all doctors performing services within the same state abide by the same professional standards. But those standards vary from state to state. Similarly, rabbis and Catholic priests do not abide by the same common standard, but they do abide by the standard set for all Catholic priests, or for all rabbis of the same tradition, respectively. Just as accountants do not have to abide by the standards set for civil engineers within the same state in order to be considered professionals, various forms of clergy do not have to abide by some imaginary common standard in order to be considered professionals. Plus, as pointed out in my last post, there are actually legal requirements that govern clergy that do, in fact, apply across the traditional and denominational board.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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JoeB
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Dewey
 
The requirements in Ohio regarding to child abuse are somewhat different from those general requirements identified above. If I have any reason to suspect child abuse of any kind, I have a legal obligation to report it to the authorities - without exception. Further, if a person confessed to me that they had molested a child, I would be obligated by law to report them, even though it took place in a conversation that was otherwise covered under privileged conversation (in other words, if he'd just told me he killed someone ten years ago, I would be obligated to NOT report that, but if he told me in the next breath that he fondled his niece the previous week, I would be obligated to tell the authorities that he'd confessed to that). But again, the legal obligations vary somewhat from state to state.


For a Catholic priest the seal of the confessional is absolute and without exception. Does this mean that a priest must break Ohio law if someone confesses molestation? From catholiceducation.org:
Quote:
 
The sacramental seal is inviolable. Quoting Canon 983.1 of the Code of Canon Law, the Catechism states, "...It is a crime for a confessor in any way to betray a penitent by word or in any other manner or for any reason" (No. 2490). A priest, therefore, cannot break the seal to save his own life, to protect his good name, to refute a false accusation, to save the life of another, to aid the course of justice (like reporting a crime), or to avert a public calamity. He cannot be compelled by law to disclose a person's confession or be bound by any oath he takes, e.g. as a witness in a court trial. A priest cannot reveal the contents of a confession either directly, by repeating the substance of what has been said, or indirectly, by some sign, suggestion, or action. A Decree from the Holy Office (Nov. 18, 1682) mandated that confessors are forbidden, even where there would be no revelation direct or indirect, to make any use of the knowledge obtained in the confession that would "displease" the penitent or reveal his identity.

"There are many ingredients in the stew of annoyance." - Bucky Katt
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
jon-nyc
Mar 13 2010, 11:07 AM
In your view, then, did ArchBishop Ratzinger fail in his moral obligation?
It seems increasingly clear that Ratzinger did NOT fail in his moral obligation since there is no record or evidence that Fr "H" committed ANY crimes while Ratzinger was AB of Munich.

Fr H was transferred for therapy to Munich from another diocese (Essen). Some sources say he had been convicted of (an unspecified) crime and was placed in therapy. So Ratzinger as Bishop would have been the one to permit him into his diocese even for the purposes of treatment, even if he presumably was not given "faculties" to serve as a priest. For whatever reason, the Vicar General Gruber assigned H to work pastorally somewhere. I have no idea what that role was, but there is no reason to assume it was with children, nor is there any evidence that it was not with children.

This seems to be a lapse in judgment on the part of Gruber -- who has taken full responsibility-- but in 1980 it was thought that such illnesses as homosexual attraction for adolescents could be cured.

Regardless, in 1981-82 Ratzinger moved to Rome to head up the Congregation, and during the time he was still AB, there is no record of the priest acting out. After Ratzinger left, H was moved to another city -- Grafing -- where he again molested, and was investigated and convicted in 1986. Long after Ratzinger was out of Germany.

So to answer your question, Jon, there is NO culpability on the part of Ratzinger here, and certainly no moral failure. He allowed the priest to be transferred for the purposes of treatment. That seems to be the sum total of his involvement.

As much as you want to excoriate him, and as much as Jeff thinks he is truly an evil man, and most importantly as unfortunate for the victims as it is, this case does not show Ratzinger holding any smoking gun.

Your whole line of questioning about whether someone has a duty to inform has NO bearing on Ratzinger since there is NO evidence that he had any knowledge of ANY crimes being committed in his diocese.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
JoeB
Mar 13 2010, 10:00 PM
For a Catholic priest the seal of the confessional is absolute and without exception. Does this mean that a priest must break Ohio law if someone confesses molestation?
It means the priest must choose between obeying Ohio law and maintaining the seal of confession.

The priest can choose to obey Ohio law and accept one set of consequences (presumably those to be meted by the Catholic church), or the priest can choose to maintain the seal of confession and accept a different set of consequence (presumably those to be meted out by Ohio).
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JoeB
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Quote:
 
It means the priest must choose between obeying Ohio law and maintaining the seal of confession.

The priest can choose to obey Ohio law and accept one set of consequences (presumably those to be meted by the Catholic church), or the priest can choose to maintain the seal of confession and accept a different set of consequence (presumably those to be meted out by Ohio).


The way I understand it there is no choice possible. A Catholic priest may not break the seal even to save a life. If he does he incurs an automatic excommunication. If a third person (not a priest) should accidentally or otherwise hear a confession he is also bound by the seal of the confessional.

Quote:
 
Another interesting side to this question is the obligation of the laity: An interpreter needed for someone to make a confession or anyone who gains knowledge of a confession (such as overhearing someone’s confession) is also obligated to preserve secrecy (Code of Canon Law, No. 983.2). For such a person to violate the secrecy of another person’s confession is a mortal sin and warrants "a just penalty, not excluding excommunication" (No. 1388.2). A person who falsely accuses a priest of breaking the seal of the confession incurs a mortal sin and perhaps other canonical penalties, including excommunication.

catholiceducation.org

I'm pretty sure a priest is on safe legal ground as far as the secrecy of the confessional goes anywhere in any free country, but it could be that a third party might not get the same legal protection as a priest while still being morally bound by canon law. Unlikely as such a case is, It certainly would be interesting.

"There are many ingredients in the stew of annoyance." - Bucky Katt
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
JoeB
 
A Catholic priest may not break the seal even to save a life.
"May not" does not imply "cannot."

To the extent that the priest "can" (as in "has the ability to") break the seal, the priest has a choice.
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