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| Question for Ivorythumper and JoeB | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 13 2010, 10:36 AM (1,369 Views) | |
| jon-nyc | Mar 13 2010, 10:36 AM Post #1 |
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Cheers
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In your opinion, if an adult discovers another adult has molested a child and fails to alert the authorities, should they themselves be charged with a crime? ANd if not legally obligated, are they morally obligated? Again, in your view. |
| In my defense, I was left unsupervised. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Mar 13 2010, 10:38 AM Post #2 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Uh, Jon ... please caveat that with some sort of professional obligation. What if you live down the street, and that's your only relationship to that family? Do you really think that THAT guy should be charged with a crime? Also, many laws that allow punishment of someone who knew about something bad that was going on are phrased in terms of "know or should have known". Wouldn't that concern you, particularly for someone who isn't a professional? |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| Mikhailoh | Mar 13 2010, 10:43 AM Post #3 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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It certainly would concern me. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| jon-nyc | Mar 13 2010, 10:43 AM Post #4 |
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Cheers
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I asked them a question, Quirt, feel free to ask them a different question. (I added a second changing legal obligation to moral obligation) But since you've popped in, I have a question for you. If I find out a guy down the street murdered his wife, should I be obligated to report it? And should I be charged with a crime if I don't? |
| In my defense, I was left unsupervised. | |
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| George K | Mar 13 2010, 10:44 AM Post #5 |
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Finally
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In Illinois, I would lose my license if I didn't, even if I had no relationship with the child or alleged abuser. |
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A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
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| jon-nyc | Mar 13 2010, 10:45 AM Post #6 |
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Cheers
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In the Catholic church, you'd be given a funny hat and a entourage of creepy old men to look after your every need. |
| In my defense, I was left unsupervised. | |
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| kenny | Mar 13 2010, 10:47 AM Post #7 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Doesn't protecting the religion enter in? The guy down the street does not represent the largest religion in the world. Keeping things quiet may not be best for the victims but it protects the religion's image. What's more important, the mental health of 1 or 20 kids or the health of a religion with a billion members? |
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| QuirtEvans | Mar 13 2010, 10:51 AM Post #8 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Morally obligated, yes. Legally obligated, no. Charged with a crime, absolutely not. Now you answer the same two questions, please. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| ivorythumper | Mar 13 2010, 11:05 AM Post #9 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Are you asking about general cases or are you specifically targeting me related to the matter of Catholic priests discovering a crime? As a general case, we all have a moral obligation to alert the authorities if we have knowledge of any crime. Failure to do so is not necessarily a crime, unless of course the law states that it is. I think that would be a very bad law. Related to Catholic priests learning something, it depends on how the crime is uncovered. If in the confessional, the priest cannot turn in the perpetrator (and the courts firmly hold that view as well), but (I am pretty sure) the priest can stipulate as a condition of absolution that the perp turn himself in. The seal of confession is inviolable, and the secular authorities respect this as well. In the only real case I personally know of, a young priest learned from a teenager that he was being molested by someone in the parish. He called in the parents, bundled them all in the car, and drove them to the police station. The pastor was furious since he wanted to do damage control. The pastor has since left the priesthood, and is off on his own with some "healing ministery", as well as being up for charges on seven misdemeanor accounts of child endangerment. The priest who did the right thing is now the bishop of a diocese. Edited by ivorythumper, Mar 13 2010, 11:09 AM.
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| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| jon-nyc | Mar 13 2010, 11:07 AM Post #10 |
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Cheers
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In your view, then, did ArchBishop Ratzinger fail in his moral obligation? |
| In my defense, I was left unsupervised. | |
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| ivorythumper | Mar 13 2010, 11:08 AM Post #11 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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No. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Copper | Mar 13 2010, 11:18 AM Post #12 |
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Shortstop
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We he involved with the confession of the priest in question? http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P3G.HTM
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The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy | |
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| jon-nyc | Mar 13 2010, 11:19 AM Post #13 |
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Cheers
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Nice. |
| In my defense, I was left unsupervised. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Mar 13 2010, 11:20 AM Post #14 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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When you're through pillorying IT ... and, don't get me wrong, I always enjoy a good pillorying, particularly when IT is on the receiving end ... please go back and answer my questions. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| ivorythumper | Mar 13 2010, 11:42 AM Post #15 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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I have no knowledge of the specifics of the case to judge if AB failed in his moral obligation. Typically in a large Archdiocese such as Munich, the archdiocese is governed by several auxiliary bishops and suffragan bishops, and these have various vicars (general, forane, etc.) who administrate the archdioceses. In the present case it is clear that the VG Gruber was the person assigning the priest and dealing with him. I do not know if Gruber was directly under Ratzinger or was serving under one of the auxiliaries. Do you? I also do not know what was specifically said to Ratzinger -- ie, "in a matter related to the internal forum I am recommending this priest be relieved of his duties and given therapy" -- do you? But it is clear that Gruber has taken full responsibility. In short, neither you nor I have any real knowledge of the case that points to Ratzinger failing in his moral duties. That would not stop you from making a rush to judgment against Ratzinger -- heck, it does not even stop you from maligning my reputation at WTF. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| jon-nyc | Mar 13 2010, 12:13 PM Post #16 |
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Cheers
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Your actions as Apologist in Chief are what's maligning your reputation, not me. I fairly represented your view, without even mentioning your name. If you believe that your view maligns your reputation, I'd certainly have to agree. But its no fault of mine. |
| In my defense, I was left unsupervised. | |
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| ivorythumper | Mar 13 2010, 12:19 PM Post #17 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Jon: You are the one who has dragged me and my reputation to WTF and mischaracterized my views -- as you are doing now. You asked the questions and I answered them. Neither of us has sufficient information to make an informed judgment. That won't stop you of course and it won't stop you from maligning me in a venue that I do not associate and cannot defend myself. You want to score cheap points. This gives me great insight into your character. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| jon-nyc | Mar 13 2010, 12:21 PM Post #18 |
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Cheers
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Again, I didn't mention your name. SHe (who posts here as well) would have to come here to see whom I was talking about. And again, I fairly represented your views. I am in agreement that those views malign your character. |
| In my defense, I was left unsupervised. | |
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| Big John | Mar 13 2010, 12:21 PM Post #19 |
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Senior Carp
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The archbishop was obligated to put out a fire. He put it out by transferring the priest. End of obligation in their minds most likely. The RCC is ruled by the Vatican, which was first formed around 300 AD, not by the laws of mere nations that have only been in existence for a paltry 200 years. This is a cult whose clergy take a vow of celibacy but which has a racket of nicknames for its own institutions: Notre Flame (for Notre Dame Seminary in New Orleans); or Theological Closet (for Theological College at Catholic University of America in Washington, D.C.). By and large, Catholic clergy, by virtue of their sacred, holy pledge of celibacy (which is pretty much impossible to do unless you were born without testosterone), can't keep celibate, or you have to be pretty darn sexually stunted to take such an oath in the first place. You slip up? What can you do? You have to keep it a secret. Secrets breed secrets and if you keep them clamped down for enough centuries they eventually spill out, as they are doing now. |
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| ivorythumper | Mar 13 2010, 12:26 PM Post #20 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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You addressed the comment to someone in particular who knows it can only be me. The canard that you did not mention my (screen) name is nonsense and indefensible, but I am not surprised that you try to defend yourself this way. I guess everyone who does anything wrong, even someone who maligns a person who should be considered a friend, instinctively tries to find any reason to justify their action. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Quagmire | Mar 13 2010, 12:29 PM Post #21 |
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Senior Carp
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"Slipping up" on a vow of celibacy would include having sex with another adult, of either gender. Molesting children is something different. It is NOT slipping up and having sex because the vow is too tough to uphold. Now, one may examine a potential correlation between celibacy vows and child molestation. But thats another matter. But the criminal act of victimizing children by molesting them should not be represented as slipping up on celibacy. That would be like saying a man who molests his daughter merely cheated on his wife. |
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| ivorythumper | Mar 13 2010, 12:32 PM Post #22 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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I don't think you are capable of correctly stating what my views are. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| JoeB | Mar 13 2010, 01:03 PM Post #23 |
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Senior Carp
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Your question is kind of wide open so let's narrow it a little. How about: In your opinion, if an adult In California (and most other states) there is presently a legal reporting requirement for certain classes of people (and clergypersons should be included even if they aren't). This would not override the seal of the confessional which is absolute and inviolable. In Germany in the 1980's, I have no clue. As far as moral obligation, I would say that if I were reasonably sure (I think absolutely sure is too high a bar) I would report to the appropriate child welfare police. Note that the knowledge we are talking about here is direct (i.e. from direct observation or credible statements of the actual molester or molestee) not second hand he said/she said rumour. If someone, however credible, TOLD me about a molestation that THEY had direct knowledge of, I would encourage them to report it but I would not report it myself since all information I have is heresay. OTOH, why let the hypotheticals get in the way of a good witch hunt? |
| "There are many ingredients in the stew of annoyance." - Bucky Katt | |
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| Big John | Mar 13 2010, 01:18 PM Post #24 |
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Senior Carp
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Quagmire: good point. They DO slip up with women and adults. Why, a few months ago I believe i even posted a link about a priest who got busted in NJ for performing an abortion on a woman (or girl I'm not sure) with his bare hands. But if you are willing to swear off sex for life, there has to be something SERIOUSLY wrong with you. It's the most unnatural notion humankind could ever cook up for other humans. |
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| Mikhailoh | Mar 13 2010, 01:18 PM Post #25 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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That's what some people think about homosexuality. I am amazed that you can call others here bigots and then make that statement. Sex has varying levels of importance to different people, and it can be of a lesser priority than faith quite easily. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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