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Pope Benedict protected child molester
Topic Started: Mar 13 2010, 01:42 AM (4,476 Views)
QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Copper
Mar 15 2010, 09:51 AM
A simple question.

A simple answer would do nicely.
Well, at least we've clarified one thing.

It's not that you aren't smart enough, it's that you aren't honest enough.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Copper
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Shortstop
QuirtEvans
Mar 15 2010, 09:52 AM
Copper
Mar 15 2010, 09:51 AM
A simple question.

A simple answer would do nicely.
Well, at least we've clarified one thing.

It's not that you aren't smart enough, it's that you aren't honest enough.

I think you may have missed the point of the question.

It really is simple.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Once again, we argue the specific words not the meaning.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
QuirtEvans
Mar 15 2010, 04:15 AM
ivorythumper
Mar 14 2010, 07:00 PM
QuirtEvans
Mar 14 2010, 06:58 PM
ivorythumper
Mar 14 2010, 06:52 PM
I threw that one in for you, Quirt. Like a hamster. ;)
Posted Image
Oh, I didn't realize you were into hamsters.
There you go, projecting again.

Everything with you seems to turn into an accusation of homosexual behavior.

You really should see a psychiatrist about that.
Hey, you're the one who offered an emoticon of a smiley offering access to his heiny after I mentioned hamsters. It's not projection if you are making an invitation.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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apple
one of the angels
o man..

what a unusual thread.
it behooves me to behold
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Big John
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Senior Carp
Posted Image





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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
Copper
Mar 15 2010, 09:48 AM
Renauda
Mar 15 2010, 09:44 AM
Copper
Mar 15 2010, 09:27 AM
It is absolutely fair in that it has exactly the same insinuations as jon, chas, ax and others have made about the catholics here.

They have been attacking an institution and its policies. They have not been attacking individual TNCR members for belonging to that institution.

I did not attack a TNCR member.

And you should apologize for implying that I did.

Then you should apologize to qe and jon for getting them all stirred up about it.
A rather lame attempt at deflection and reframing to turn the spotlight away from your own irresponsible statement.

Doesn't even deserve an *A* for effort.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
jon-nyc
Mar 15 2010, 02:14 AM
ivorythumper
Mar 14 2010, 06:37 PM
jon-nyc
Mar 14 2010, 04:55 PM
Sure I demonstrated it, at least to my - and seemingly your - understanding of what it means to act morally when one comes into possession of knowledge that another man has raped an 11 year old. You're just in denial, or hoping that the facts of the the article will be refuted at some point.
Jon, it is not in your interest to be a careful thinker about this. You have shown that time and again.

On the other hand, I have shown myself to be a careful thinker. Let's do this quite objectively. I will even let you edit before proceeding. Let's start with what constitutes a moral failing. I would suggest that

"A moral failing would be where a person intentionally did not do what they were morally obligated to do, or did something against or other than what they were morally obligated to do."

You edit that.
Sorry, boy Socrates, I don't have time for this game. I'm heading to London today.


Lets just agree to disagree. I think adults, and most certainly bishops, have a moral obligation to report people who rape 11 year old boys to the authorities for arrest and prosecution. You don't, or at least not in all circumstances.

We'll just leave it at that.
If you are going to play the "let's just agree to disagree" game, then you need to drop the conversation. But you haven't dropped the conversation, so we can more likely agree that it is not in your interest to be a careful thinker about this.

The question has to do with the fiduciary duty, as understood by the culture and law of that time. In 1980, it seems reasonable to think that if a person was in psychotherapy with qualified professionals, that the bishop of another diocese should be able to invite that person in as a patient for the purpose of therapuetic care.

The fiduciary duty of the bishop would be to see to it that the person was under therapeutic care and would be entitled to rely on the expert opinions of the qualified therapist.

If the law itself did not demand reporting or registration of sex offenders, then the church authorities in Munich had no moral, ethical or legal burden to report him. The church in Essen might, but again that would depend on the law and understanding of the time.

You are reading today's sensibilities and law into this case in order to find Ratzinger morally culpable. To you it does not matter what the understanding was in the culture 30 years ago.

But of course, for you to consider these aspects would require you to be a careful thinker, and you are showing that you are either not interested or not capable of emotional detachment to make an objective judgment. Again, if you want to hold prejudicial opinions about the Church you will regardless of what I say. That is not an agreement to disagree, it is an intellectual failing on your part.

The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
CHAS
Mar 15 2010, 07:13 AM
The Roman Catholic church has spent millions opposing homosexual rights, including gay marriage.

How again is that keeping homosexuals down? Everyone in California has domestic partnership rights. There is even a State website to register a domestic partnership to protect rights and enforce responsibilities.

And please show me the money trail where the Catholic Church has spent these millions. I am not opposed to the church spending money to campaign on issues, but I've never seen millions mentioned before.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Big John
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Senior Carp
Why do you persist in making excuses for them? What's in it for you? A paycheck?





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CHAS
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Middle Aged Carp
http://www.californiansagainsthate.com/
1.425 million from the Knights of Columbus

http://ebar.com/news/article.php?sec=news&article=3805
$200,000 from the Conference of Catholic Bishops

earlier in the thread I noted

the $550,000 in Maine alone

My Webpage

a search of the other states with gay and anti- gay votes will reveal the same.

"You want to be Nice, or you want to be Effective? Make the law or be subject to it?"-Roy Cohn
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Big John
Mar 15 2010, 01:02 PM
Why do you persist in making excuses for them? What's in it for you? A paycheck?
These are not excuses, John.

Jon is claiming definitively that Ratzinger was MORALLY culpable for failing to turn a patient in psychotherapuetic care over to the local civil authorities. My contention is that he does not have enough information to make that judgment (assuming of course that he wants to be fair minded about things and to make just judgments).

He has no evidence of the specifics of the offenses this person committed in Essen, he has no evidence of the process in Essen that recommended this man for treatment, and has no evidence of what advice or evaluation the qualified therapist who was treating this man gave to the church authorities. All he has by his own admission are a few published journalistic accounts and his own assumptions.

In short, Jon is predispossed to find Ratzinger morally culpable. He is many times on record as stating that religions are all foul, and that Catholicism is foul. He cannot be an objective judge in this matter, and if he were called to be empaneled in a jury related to anything regarding sex abuse in the Catholic Church, he ought to recuse himself if he is truly interested in justice.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
CHAS
Mar 15 2010, 01:08 PM
http://www.californiansagainsthate.com/
1.425 million from the Knights of Columbus

http://ebar.com/news/article.php?sec=news&article=3805
$200,000 from the Conference of Catholic Bishops

earlier in the thread I noted

the $550,000 in Maine alone

My Webpage

a search of the other states with gay and anti- gay votes will reveal the same.

You said the Catholic Church. The KofC are not the Catholic Church. I don't see millions.

And try to get real number other than some gay blog that has a political reason to make things up.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
ivorythumper
Mar 15 2010, 12:02 PM
QuirtEvans
Mar 15 2010, 04:15 AM
ivorythumper
Mar 14 2010, 07:00 PM
QuirtEvans
Mar 14 2010, 06:58 PM
ivorythumper
Mar 14 2010, 06:52 PM
I threw that one in for you, Quirt. Like a hamster. ;)
Posted Image
Oh, I didn't realize you were into hamsters.
There you go, projecting again.

Everything with you seems to turn into an accusation of homosexual behavior.

You really should see a psychiatrist about that.
Hey, you're the one who offered an emoticon of a smiley offering access to his heiny after I mentioned hamsters. It's not projection if you are making an invitation.
Apparently you need an education.

Quote:
 
1. mooning

The act of baring one's anus to a party as a sign of defiance.


http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mooning

If you consistently misinterpret the behavior of others as an invitation to homosexual activity, you're either severely repressed or mentally disturbed in some other way. You pick. Frankly, digging through your psyche holds no attraction to me.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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CHAS
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Middle Aged Carp
ivorythumper
Mar 15 2010, 12:25 PM
CHAS
Mar 15 2010, 07:13 AM
The Roman Catholic church has spent millions opposing homosexual rights, including gay marriage.

How again is that keeping homosexuals down? Everyone in California has domestic partnership rights. There is even a State website to register a domestic partnership to protect rights and enforce responsibilities.

And please show me the money trail where the Catholic Church has spent these millions. I am not opposed to the church spending money to campaign on issues, but I've never seen millions mentioned before.
A domestic registry?

Like this one?

http://www.akc.org/

wow



"You want to be Nice, or you want to be Effective? Make the law or be subject to it?"-Roy Cohn
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ivorythumper
Member Avatar
I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
I just figured it was a Pavlovian thing for you. Mention "hamster" and you offer your buttocks. You really need to be more careful of the context in order to communicate effectively. :)
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
CHAS
Mar 15 2010, 01:42 PM
ivorythumper
Mar 15 2010, 12:25 PM
CHAS
Mar 15 2010, 07:13 AM
The Roman Catholic church has spent millions opposing homosexual rights, including gay marriage.

How again is that keeping homosexuals down? Everyone in California has domestic partnership rights. There is even a State website to register a domestic partnership to protect rights and enforce responsibilities.

And please show me the money trail where the Catholic Church has spent these millions. I am not opposed to the church spending money to campaign on issues, but I've never seen millions mentioned before.
A domestic registry?

Like this one?

http://www.akc.org/

wow



Oh no, Chas, I mean governmental registries, such as corporation commissions for registering special interest groups that actually grant rights and enforce responsibilities and obligations under state law. I don't think AKC does any of that.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
ivorythumper
Mar 15 2010, 01:47 PM
CHAS
Mar 15 2010, 01:42 PM
ivorythumper
Mar 15 2010, 12:25 PM
CHAS
Mar 15 2010, 07:13 AM
The Roman Catholic church has spent millions opposing homosexual rights, including gay marriage.

How again is that keeping homosexuals down? Everyone in California has domestic partnership rights. There is even a State website to register a domestic partnership to protect rights and enforce responsibilities.

And please show me the money trail where the Catholic Church has spent these millions. I am not opposed to the church spending money to campaign on issues, but I've never seen millions mentioned before.
A domestic registry?

Like this one?

http://www.akc.org/

wow



Oh no, Chas, I mean governmental registries, such as corporation commissions for registering special interest groups that actually grant rights and enforce responsibilities and obligations under state law. I don't think AKC does any of that.
Besides, everyone knows the AKC is for breeders. :lol2:
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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ivorythumper
Member Avatar
I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
:tsktsk: Careful, Phlebas will chastise you for that.

but for the rest of us who get jokes ... :lol2:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Mikhailoh
Mar 15 2010, 03:20 PM
ivorythumper
Mar 15 2010, 01:47 PM
CHAS
Mar 15 2010, 01:42 PM
ivorythumper
Mar 15 2010, 12:25 PM
CHAS
Mar 15 2010, 07:13 AM
The Roman Catholic church has spent millions opposing homosexual rights, including gay marriage.

How again is that keeping homosexuals down? Everyone in California has domestic partnership rights. There is even a State website to register a domestic partnership to protect rights and enforce responsibilities.

And please show me the money trail where the Catholic Church has spent these millions. I am not opposed to the church spending money to campaign on issues, but I've never seen millions mentioned before.
A domestic registry?

Like this one?

http://www.akc.org/

wow



Oh no, Chas, I mean governmental registries, such as corporation commissions for registering special interest groups that actually grant rights and enforce responsibilities and obligations under state law. I don't think AKC does any of that.
Besides, everyone knows the AKC is for breeders. :lol2:
No, they are just one segment of the AKC membership.

It's more for pure-breds.

I am so not going there.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
I hear they're at least half bitches.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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CHAS
Member Avatar
Middle Aged Carp
Donations will not come directly from a church. They want to protect their tax-exempt status. They foster the hate.


:) LOL the AKC is for breeders only isn't it?
"You want to be Nice, or you want to be Effective? Make the law or be subject to it?"-Roy Cohn
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Piano*Dad
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Bull-Carp
IT
 
Jon is claiming definitively that Ratzinger was MORALLY culpable for failing to turn a patient in psychotherapuetic care over to the local civil authorities. My contention is that he does not have enough information to make that judgment (assuming of course that he wants to be fair minded about things and to make just judgments).

He has no evidence of the specifics of the offenses this person committed in Essen, he has no evidence of the process in Essen that recommended this man for treatment, and has no evidence of what advice or evaluation the qualified therapist who was treating this man gave to the church authorities. All he has by his own admission are a few published journalistic accounts and his own assumptions.


I have read most of this thread. It is characteristic of a lot of 'discussion' here. Many people have entrenched views, and even jealously guarded personae here, all of which actually seems to inhibit learning, or at least any public show of it. I have seen IT argue ad nauseam about angels dancing on the head of a pin (my take, of course) in order to avoid conceding a point. It seems to be his persona. Jon and others have noted that, in this thread in fact. Yet in this case, I think IT is right. We know so little about this case, and yet those who detest religion, and the RC church in particular jump in with both fist swinging. Their delight in bashing is palpable. That seems to be their personae.

I'm done now. In fact, this whole thread has been rather a bore. So predictable, in fact. That persona stuff.

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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Piano*Dad
Mar 15 2010, 03:49 PM
IT
 
Jon is claiming definitively that Ratzinger was MORALLY culpable for failing to turn a patient in psychotherapuetic care over to the local civil authorities. My contention is that he does not have enough information to make that judgment (assuming of course that he wants to be fair minded about things and to make just judgments).

He has no evidence of the specifics of the offenses this person committed in Essen, he has no evidence of the process in Essen that recommended this man for treatment, and has no evidence of what advice or evaluation the qualified therapist who was treating this man gave to the church authorities. All he has by his own admission are a few published journalistic accounts and his own assumptions.


I have read most of this thread. It is characteristic of a lot of 'discussion' here. Many people have entrenched views, and even jealously guarded personae here, all of which actually seems to inhibit learning, or at least any public show of it. I have seen IT argue ad nauseam about angels dancing on the head of a pin (my take, of course) in order to avoid conceding a point. It seems to be his persona. Jon and others have noted that, in this thread in fact. Yet in this case, I think IT is right. We know so little about this case, and yet those who detest religion, and the RC church in particular jump in with both fist swinging. Their delight in bashing is palpable. That seems to be their personae.

I'm done now. In fact, this whole thread has been rather a bore. So predictable, in fact. That persona stuff.

I don't agree.

The church's standard for making a decision shouldn't be the same as the criminal law standard. And, really, that's what this is all about. Can you reach a judgment based on the evidence that we know, in the absence of the evidence we don't know? In a criminal court, probably not, but the Catholic Church is not a criminal court.

I have to agree with Jon here ... both on the substance and on his take on IT's argument.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
I agree with PD.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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