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Pope Benedict protected child molester
Topic Started: Mar 13 2010, 01:42 AM (4,478 Views)
jon-nyc
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Cheers
apple
Mar 14 2010, 08:13 PM
coverup not acceptable
IT - you could learn a lot from Apple's moral clarity on this subject.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Phlebas
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Bull-Carp
jon-nyc
Mar 15 2010, 02:15 AM
apple
Mar 14 2010, 08:13 PM
coverup not acceptable
IT - you could learn a lot from Apple's moral clarity on this subject.
...and brevity....among other things.
Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML

The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D


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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
ivorythumper
Mar 14 2010, 07:00 PM
QuirtEvans
Mar 14 2010, 06:58 PM
ivorythumper
Mar 14 2010, 06:52 PM
I threw that one in for you, Quirt. Like a hamster. ;)
Posted Image
Oh, I didn't realize you were into hamsters.
Well, at least they are talking. :lol2:
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
:lol2:
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
ivorythumper
Mar 14 2010, 07:00 PM
QuirtEvans
Mar 14 2010, 06:58 PM
ivorythumper
Mar 14 2010, 06:52 PM
I threw that one in for you, Quirt. Like a hamster. ;)
Posted Image
Oh, I didn't realize you were into hamsters.
There you go, projecting again.

Everything with you seems to turn into an accusation of homosexual behavior.

You really should see a psychiatrist about that.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Facts not in evidence, counselor. He implied beastiality, not homosexuality, and did not specify the gender of the hamster.

Discuss.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
I think gender goes without saying, Mik. After all, no gentleman would put a female hamster up his ass, it would be bad form to say the least.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
You hand me an ebarrassment of riches in opportunity. All hilarious, all of which I will forego in the interests of peace. :angel:
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
jon-nyc
Mar 15 2010, 02:14 AM
Sorry, boy Socrates....
Now that's a cheap shot. :lol:
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Phlebas
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Bull-Carp
Here's the AP story. I find this vatican letter - quote below - pretty disturbing. I'm sure there will be a host of socratic machinations to defend that, as well.

Quote:
 
The pope, meanwhile, continues to be under fire for a 2001 Vatican letter he sent to all bishops advising them that all cases of sexual abuse of minors must be forwarded to his then-office, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and that the cases were to be subject to pontifical secret.

Germany's justice minister, Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger, has cited the document as evidence that the Vatican created a "wall of silence" around abuse cases that prevented prosecution. Irish bishops have said the document had been "widely misunderstood" by the bishops themselves to mean they shouldn't go to police. And lawyers for abuse victims in the United States have cited the document in arguing that the Catholic Church tried to obstruct justice
Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML

The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D


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jon-nyc
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Cheers
I'm sure we'll hear from Apologista Socratus that this was all about protecting victims, and had nothing to do with damage control for the institution.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
In this case what you have is others' interpretation of what the letter represents. Certainly, like the church, all these others have their own agendas. Without seeing he letter in question it is difficult to say.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
You also might want to not cherry pick what you quote. There is more on this letter.

Quote:
 
But canon lawyers insisted Friday that there was nothing in the document that would preclude bishops from fulfilling their moral and civic duties of going to police when confronted with a case of child abuse.

They stressed that the document merely concerned procedures for handling the church trial of an accused priest, and that the secrecy required by Rome for that hearing by no means extended to a ban on reporting such crimes to civil authorities.

"Canon law concerning grave crimes ... doesn't in any way interfere with or diminish the obligations of the faithful to civil laws," said Monsignor Davide Cito, a professor of canon law at Rome's Santa Croce University.

The letter doesn't tell bishops to also report the crimes to police.

But the Rev. John Coughlin, a law professor at the University of Notre Dame Law School, said it didn't need to. A general principle of moral theology to which every bishop should adhere is that church officials are obliged to follow civil laws where they live, he said.



Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
bishops from fulfilling their moral and civic duties of going to police when confronted with a case of child abuse.


Quote:
 
A general principle of moral theology to which every bishop should adhere is that church officials are obliged to follow civil laws where they live, he said.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Mikhailoh
Mar 15 2010, 04:39 AM
Facts not in evidence, counselor. He implied beastiality, not homosexuality, and did not specify the gender of the hamster.

Discuss.
Fair point. If you want to say that the evidence suggests that IT is into bestiality, who am I to object?
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Mikhailoh
Mar 15 2010, 05:53 AM
You also might want to not cherry pick what you quote. There is more on this letter.

Quote:
 
But canon lawyers insisted Friday that there was nothing in the document that would preclude bishops from fulfilling their moral and civic duties of going to police when confronted with a case of child abuse.

They stressed that the document merely concerned procedures for handling the church trial of an accused priest, and that the secrecy required by Rome for that hearing by no means extended to a ban on reporting such crimes to civil authorities.

"Canon law concerning grave crimes ... doesn't in any way interfere with or diminish the obligations of the faithful to civil laws," said Monsignor Davide Cito, a professor of canon law at Rome's Santa Croce University.

The letter doesn't tell bishops to also report the crimes to police.

But the Rev. John Coughlin, a law professor at the University of Notre Dame Law School, said it didn't need to. A general principle of moral theology to which every bishop should adhere is that church officials are obliged to follow civil laws where they live, he said.



Quote:
 
Irish bishops have said the document had been "widely misunderstood" by the bishops themselves to mean they shouldn't go to police.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Quote:
 
But canon lawyers insisted Friday that there was nothing in the document that would preclude bishops from fulfilling their moral and civic duties of going to police when confronted with a case of child abuse.


Except, of course, following the example set by the author.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Quagmire
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Senior Carp
Mikhailoh
Mar 15 2010, 05:53 AM
...a professor of canon law at Rome's Santa Croce University.

Santa Croce?

Isnt that just Jim's dad?
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CHAS
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Middle Aged Carp
ivorythumper
Mar 14 2010, 02:11 PM
CHAS
Mar 14 2010, 01:53 PM
Mikhailoh
Mar 14 2010, 07:19 AM
jon-nyc
Mar 14 2010, 06:36 AM
Well the topic is pedophilia, you expect it to be uplifting?
The topic has never been pedophilia. It's hatred of the Catholic church.
Yep, the Roman Catholic church hates me. I hate it.

They spend a lot of time teaching homophobia and spend millions to keep homosexuals down.


o, yea, the nuns spend their time teaching anti-semitism
No Chas, the Church does not hate you. They certainly don't teach homophobia, and don't spend any money keeping homosexuals down.

But we've been through this time and again.
The Roman Catholic church has spent millions opposing homosexual rights, including gay marriage.
In California the RC church was canny enough to invite the Mormons to help fight gay rights.

"You want to be Nice, or you want to be Effective? Make the law or be subject to it?"-Roy Cohn
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mikhailoh
Mar 15 2010, 05:53 AM
Quote:
 
A general principle of moral theology to which every bishop should adhere is that church officials are obliged to follow civil laws where they live, he said.


Hey, JoeB, does the seal of confession trumps this "general principle" or not? :D

Mik, what do you think? If, in a civil jurisdiction where local laws stipulate that all child molestation incidents must be reported to the civil authorities, a Catholic priest hears some one confessing to having sexually molested a minor, do you think said priest should alert the civil authorities?
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
CHAS
Mar 15 2010, 07:13 AM
ivorythumper
Mar 14 2010, 02:11 PM
CHAS
Mar 14 2010, 01:53 PM
Mikhailoh
Mar 14 2010, 07:19 AM
jon-nyc
Mar 14 2010, 06:36 AM
Well the topic is pedophilia, you expect it to be uplifting?
The topic has never been pedophilia. It's hatred of the Catholic church.
Yep, the Roman Catholic church hates me. I hate it.

They spend a lot of time teaching homophobia and spend millions to keep homosexuals down.


o, yea, the nuns spend their time teaching anti-semitism
No Chas, the Church does not hate you. They certainly don't teach homophobia, and don't spend any money keeping homosexuals down.

But we've been through this time and again.
The Roman Catholic church has spent millions opposing homosexual rights, including gay marriage.
In California the RC church was canny enough to invite the Mormons to help fight gay rights.

Not true Chas. As IT has repeatedly stated it's the disordered appetite of fornication in which unchaste homosexuals indulge that the Church opposes and seeks to cure.

Catholics- Fornication today, and Homosexuality
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Axtremus
Mar 15 2010, 08:00 AM
Mikhailoh
Mar 15 2010, 05:53 AM
Quote:
 
A general principle of moral theology to which every bishop should adhere is that church officials are obliged to follow civil laws where they live, he said.


Hey, JoeB, does the seal of confession trumps this "general principle" or not? :D

Mik, what do you think? If, in a civil jurisdiction where local laws stipulate that all child molestation incidents must be reported to the civil authorities, a Catholic priest hears some one confessing to having sexually molested a minor, do you think said priest should alert the civil authorities?
I believe the inviolability of the confessional has been upheld in court. Outside that context I suspect they would have an obligation to do so, yes.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mikhailoh
Mar 15 2010, 08:03 AM
Axtremus
Mar 15 2010, 08:00 AM

Mik, what do you think? If, in a civil jurisdiction where local laws stipulate that all child molestation incidents must be reported to the civil authorities, a Catholic priest hears some one confessing to having sexually molested a minor, do you think said priest should alert the civil authorities?
I believe the inviolability of the confessional has been upheld in court.
I was not asking about what you understand to be the court(s)' opinion. I am asking for your opinion: If, in a civil jurisdiction where local laws stipulate that all child molestation incidents must be reported to the civil authorities, a Catholic priest hears some one confessing to having sexually molested a minor, do you think said priest should alert the civil authorities?
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
No, I do not.

Frankly I don't see any evidence that civil authorities have been any more successful than the church in dealing with those who molest children. They get sent a way for a little bit and come out in many cases to offend again. Estimates of recidivism range from 10% to 45%.

So the next question becomes what greater social good is accomplished by throwing out 2,000 (or however many since the sacrament of confession came into existence) years of precedent, especially if the state is no more effective than the church? The only reason I can see is societal revenge.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mikhailoh
Mar 15 2010, 08:15 AM
No, I do not.

Frankly I don't see any evidence that civil authorities have been any more successful than the church in dealing with those who molest children. They get sent a way for a little bit and come out in many cases to offend again. Estimates of recidivism range from 10% to 45%.

So the next question becomes what greater social good is accomplished by throwing out 2,000 (or however many since the sacrament of confession came into existence) years of precedent, especially if the state is no more effective than the church? The only reason I can see is societal revenge.
OK, I appreciate your answer and I appreciate your reasoning to back up that answer. Thanks.
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