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Pope Benedict protected child molester
Topic Started: Mar 13 2010, 01:42 AM (4,483 Views)
ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Big John
Mar 13 2010, 11:19 AM
ivorythumper
Mar 13 2010, 10:05 AM
jon-nyc
Mar 13 2010, 10:03 AM
So tell me, IT, in your mind did the Pope do the right thing?
I think the diocese should have notified the authorities for prosecution. Not doing so, however, does not equal "protecting a child molester".
For someone who can't disseminate a zygote from a child waiting for a school bus, I'm amazed that you'd even attempt to split hairs here.
I don't think you know the meaning of "disseminate".
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Big John
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separate then.

For someone who can't separate a zygote from a child waiting for a school bus, I'm amazed that you'd even attempt to split hairs here.





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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Big John
Mar 13 2010, 12:04 PM
separate then.

For someone who can't separate a zygote from a child waiting for a school bus, I'm amazed that you'd even attempt to split hairs here.
I don't think you understand the meaning of the word "separate" either.

Does the child waiting for the school bus have a zygote from which she should be separated? I suppose I could do that, if I had a scalpel, but it would be a bloody mess, and I'd probably get arrested, and it would be against my nature to do something so horrific.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Luke's Dad
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Emperor Pengin
ivorythumper
Mar 13 2010, 12:35 PM
Big John
Mar 13 2010, 12:04 PM
separate then.

For someone who can't separate a zygote from a child waiting for a school bus, I'm amazed that you'd even attempt to split hairs here.
I don't think you understand the meaning of the word "separate" either.

Does the child waiting for the school bus have a zygote from which she should be separated? I suppose I could do that, if I had a scalpel, but it would be a bloody mess, and I'd probably get arrested, and it would be against my nature to do something so horrific.
:lol2: :lol2: :lol2:

That was exactly my first thought on reading that, too.
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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Luke's Dad
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ivorythumper
Mar 13 2010, 12:35 PM
Big John
Mar 13 2010, 12:04 PM
separate then.

For someone who can't separate a zygote from a child waiting for a school bus, I'm amazed that you'd even attempt to split hairs here.
I don't think you understand the meaning of the word "separate" either.

Does the child waiting for the school bus have a zygote from which she should be separated? I suppose I could do that, if I had a scalpel, but it would be a bloody mess, and I'd probably get arrested, and it would be against my nature to do something so horrific.
Well, at least you weren't the one to disseminate the zygotes to the children in the first place.
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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ivorythumper
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Good point, LD.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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musicasacra
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HOLY CARP!!!
jon-nyc
Mar 13 2010, 09:27 AM
It says he approved the transfer.

There are so many layers in the church, I wonder what that means. Personal knowledge or an underling got the boss's required approval in some form. It would be best for Benedict to address the question himself and also address the abuse cases in Europe. It's disturbing, and we want assurances the victims are receiving help and these men are being properly dealt with, consistently across the dioceses.

Very interesting article. I agree with the statement from the canon law expert. I became Catholic in England and remember the European view that this was largely an American problem, a problem with our seminaries and formation.

I don't agree with your title to this thread. The NYT title was more accurate with the currently known information. Your title comes across as celebrating an opportunity to go after something you already despise.
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apple
one of the angels
ivorythumper
Mar 13 2010, 10:05 AM
jon-nyc
Mar 13 2010, 10:03 AM
So tell me, IT, in your mind did the Pope do the right thing?
I think the diocese should have notified the authorities for prosecution. Not doing so, however, does not equal "protecting a child molester".
the policy of keeping the scandals within the framework of the church and not turning abusers into the civil authorities certainly did, in general, protect the molesters, call it what 'we' will.

the brouhaha that ensued is sooooooooooo much worse than the individual prosecutions would have been, plus the abuse certainly could have been at least arrested rather than pandemic.

what a culture.

i just don't understand how this could have been so widespread.

i am a dutiful Catholic, but this is a challenge for me. i feel so hypocritical turning a blind eye.
it behooves me to behold
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
I understand, apple, and this stuff pisses me off that people who have solemn vows to treat others as Christ would might become predators. I agree (and I have stated here before) that anyone who breaks the law especially related to child abuse should be turned over to the authorities, and anyone who facilitates that by transferring a known or even suspected priest from one parish to another where he is not known so that he can continue his crimes, should be dismissed from office. I think a number of bishops in the US are guilty of that (the former bishop in Phoenix for instance), and I would be supportive of the civil authorities in their prosecution of anyone who systemically plays a shell game with predatory priests.

I don't see that as the case here. The priest "H" was from another diocese (Essen) where he was removed to Munich for therapy (according the article after some sort of previous conviction). The VG for some reason put him back into a pastoral role. I cannot possibly imagine anyone deliberately doing that, much less Ratzinger approving that decision, with full knowledge that "H" had a previous conviction and was in therapy for sexual issues. Something seems to have gotten lost in the paperwork of the transfer. The VG and AB are certainly responsible for that, since it is their fiduciary duty to protect their diocese.

The facts of this case do not suggest that this was a deliberate action to contravene their fiduciary duty -- to knowingly put a known child molester in an opportunity to continue his crimes. "H" was not even from the archdiocese, and evidently only there for therapy. What possible motive could Ratzinger AND Gruber have had for that? It makes NO sense unless Ratzinger is truly an evil and malicious man, which I doubt.

But for Jon, who only wants to grind his ax and see the Church destroyed anyway, and has no scruples about maligning me on WTF when he does not even care to understand my views on this, none of that would matter anyway.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
ivorythumper
Mar 13 2010, 01:25 PM
maligning me on WTF
You can keep repeating this if you want, but I'm done responding.

I didn't mention your name there. If someone wanted to know whom I was talking about, they would have to read the thread here. If I did misrepresent your views, than that would be obvious to the reader, so you would not have been maligned in any way.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
musicasacra
Mar 13 2010, 12:59 PM
Very interesting article. I agree with the statement from the canon law expert. I became Catholic in England and remember the European view that this was largely an American problem, a problem with our seminaries and formation.
I don't agree with the idea that it's just an American problem. From recent news reports, and from some good friends I have who grew up in Ireland, that country at least has experienced some horrendous abuses of power by those in the religious establishment. Many of those people felt very strongly that the church in Ireland had far too much influence and power, both for it's own good and for those of it's parishioners.

I don't think it's just a Catholic problem either. It's all about power, the large organisations who wield it, and the seemingly inevitable abuse by individuals within the organisation that seems to follow. It is particularly sickening when carried out by priests, vicars etc.

People are just people, whatever group they happen to belong to, and there's always going to be bad apples. What's really depressing is when the organisation containing the bad apples closes ranks, putting the organisation before the good of the individual.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Big John
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BOO!!!
Edited by Big John, Mar 16 2010, 11:18 PM.





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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
jon-nyc
Mar 13 2010, 01:44 PM
ivorythumper
Mar 13 2010, 01:25 PM
maligning me on WTF
You can keep repeating this if you want, but I'm done responding.

I didn't mention your name there. If someone wanted to know whom I was talking about, they would have to read the thread here. If I did misrepresent your views, than that would be obvious to the reader, so you would not have been maligned in any way.
Of course you are done responding since your actions are indefensible. More nonsense that even if you did misrepresent my views that does not malign -- of course it does -- courts find all the time for slander and liable and defamation based on what was REPRESENTED, not what is ACTUAL.

I only wish you had the character to admit to it.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Quote:
 
This whole argument that fetuses are children is going to come back and bite them in the butt when word gets out why they wanted the children to be born in the first place.
Words fail.
Edited by Mikhailoh, Mar 13 2010, 02:05 PM.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Copper
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Shortstop
Big John
Mar 13 2010, 02:01 PM
This whole argument that fetuses are children is going to come back and bite them in the butt when word gets out why they wanted the children to be born in the first place.

I hope you are drunk.

For your sake.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
apple
Mar 13 2010, 01:01 PM
i just don't understand how this could have been so widespread.
Celibacy attracts those with secret forbidden desires.
It provides an explanation to the public for not being married.
Their vocation is the perfect cover.

People need sex.
I'd think you'd want your religious leaders to have this need met in a socially acceptable way.
Expecting them to pretend they don't have this need while teaching morality to children is a recipe for disaster.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
John D'Oh
Mar 13 2010, 01:56 PM
musicasacra
Mar 13 2010, 12:59 PM
Very interesting article. I agree with the statement from the canon law expert. I became Catholic in England and remember the European view that this was largely an American problem, a problem with our seminaries and formation.
I don't agree with the idea that it's just an American problem. From recent news reports, and from some good friends I have who grew up in Ireland, that country at least has experienced some horrendous abuses of power by those in the religious establishment. Many of those people felt very strongly that the church in Ireland had far too much influence and power, both for it's own good and for those of it's parishioners.

I don't think it's just a Catholic problem either. It's all about power, the large organisations who wield it, and the seemingly inevitable abuse by individuals within the organisation that seems to follow. It is particularly sickening when carried out by priests, vicars etc.

People are just people, whatever group they happen to belong to, and there's always going to be bad apples. What's really depressing is when the organisation containing the bad apples closes ranks, putting the organisation before the good of the individual.
I completely agree with that, John.

I think MS's point was that in the early 2000s it was represented as an American problem, due to the liberalism in the US and the influx of gay clergy and the homosexuality in the seminaries (or feminaries or semenaries, as they were called). Many entirely healthy, straight, and emotionally balanced young men were either not approved for training, or were persecuted as being "too dogmatic" or "not empathetic" or "sexually repressed", or just left because of the scandalous behavior they witnessed. I suspect the deviations in Ireland and the US have different causes based on the cultural sensibilities. A balanced sexuality does not see the body and sex as evil or dirty (Jansenism in Ireland) or as the greatest good that should not admit of any limitations without regard for human virtue (American liberal theology).

I would rather that the Church involve the civil authorities in cases of criminal matters, but given 2000 years of uneasy relationships with secular authorities, including persecutions, dispossessions, arrests, etc I think the church leaders are inclined to deal "in house" with these issues even if by their own social policy they acknowledge the right and duty of the secular authority to adjudicate civil and criminal matters. .
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
kenny
Mar 13 2010, 02:08 PM
apple
Mar 13 2010, 01:01 PM
i just don't understand how this could have been so widespread.
Celibacy attracts those with secret forbidden desires.
It provides an explanation to the public for not being married.
Their vocation is the perfect cover.

People need sex.
I'd think you'd want your religious leaders to have this need met in a socially acceptable way.
Everything for you seems to be about homosexuality. You can't seem to get that people really can be different from you.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Mikhailoh
Mar 13 2010, 02:04 PM
Quote:
 
This whole argument that fetuses are children is going to come back and bite them in the butt when word gets out why they wanted the children to be born in the first place.
Words fail.
They certainly failed Pianolicious in his attempt to produce a coherent thought.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
ivorythumper
Mar 13 2010, 02:20 PM
kenny
Mar 13 2010, 02:08 PM
apple
Mar 13 2010, 01:01 PM
i just don't understand how this could have been so widespread.
Celibacy attracts those with secret forbidden desires.
It provides an explanation to the public for not being married.
Their vocation is the perfect cover.

People need sex.
I'd think you'd want your religious leaders to have this need met in a socially acceptable way.
Everything for you seems to be about homosexuality. You can't seem to get that people really can be different from you.
Huh?

Homosexuality?
I never mentioned homosexuality.
I'm saying celibacy doesn't work.
What does that have to do with homosexuality?

Huh? Posted Image
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musicasacra
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HOLY CARP!!!
John D'Oh
Mar 13 2010, 01:56 PM
musicasacra
Mar 13 2010, 12:59 PM
Very interesting article. I agree with the statement from the canon law expert. I became Catholic in England and remember the European view that this was largely an American problem, a problem with our seminaries and formation.
I don't agree with the idea that it's just an American problem.
+ 1

I don't think anyone is laying the problem with America these days. I was just agreeing with the canon lawyer's view on page 2 that there had been a mistaken European view that it was largely an American problem.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
kenny
Mar 13 2010, 02:25 PM
ivorythumper
Mar 13 2010, 02:20 PM
kenny
Mar 13 2010, 02:08 PM
apple
Mar 13 2010, 01:01 PM
i just don't understand how this could have been so widespread.
Celibacy attracts those with secret forbidden desires.
It provides an explanation to the public for not being married.
Their vocation is the perfect cover.

People need sex.
I'd think you'd want your religious leaders to have this need met in a socially acceptable way.
Everything for you seems to be about homosexuality. You can't seem to get that people really can be different from you.
Huh?

Homosexuality?
I never mentioned homosexuality.
I'm saying celibacy doesn't work.
What does that have to do with homosexuality?

Huh? Posted Image
What then did you mean by
Celibacy attracts those with secret forbidden desires.
It provides an explanation to the public for not being married.
Their vocation is the perfect cover.


What secret forbidden desire other than homosexuality?
What explanation would be needed for not being married?
What would their vocation be a cover for?
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Jeff
Senior Carp
ivorythumper
Mar 13 2010, 01:25 PM
It makes NO sense unless Ratzinger is truly an evil and malicious man
We have a winner.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Jeff
Mar 13 2010, 02:40 PM
ivorythumper
Mar 13 2010, 01:25 PM
It makes NO sense unless Ratzinger is truly an evil and malicious man
We have a winner.
Uh, sure. Jeff.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
ivorythumper
Mar 13 2010, 02:37 PM
kenny
Mar 13 2010, 02:25 PM
ivorythumper
Mar 13 2010, 02:20 PM
kenny
Mar 13 2010, 02:08 PM
apple
Mar 13 2010, 01:01 PM
i just don't understand how this could have been so widespread.
Celibacy attracts those with secret forbidden desires.
It provides an explanation to the public for not being married.
Their vocation is the perfect cover.

People need sex.
I'd think you'd want your religious leaders to have this need met in a socially acceptable way.
Everything for you seems to be about homosexuality. You can't seem to get that people really can be different from you.
Huh?

Homosexuality?
I never mentioned homosexuality.
I'm saying celibacy doesn't work.
What does that have to do with homosexuality?

Huh? Posted Image
What then did you mean by
Celibacy attracts those with secret forbidden desires.
It provides an explanation to the public for not being married.
Their vocation is the perfect cover.


What secret forbidden desire other than homosexuality?
What explanation would be needed for not being married?
What would their vocation be a cover for?


Uhm ... child molesters ...
Uhm ... check out the title of this thread. :doh:
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