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The Niqab Quebec Controversy; it's getting better and better
Topic Started: Mar 12 2010, 10:53 AM (559 Views)
Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
Niqab Gazette cartoon steps up debate
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
I am SO glad they are taking a stand. It is my dubious hope that the US an Europe will as well. This garb has no place in an open
society.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Mikhailoh
Mar 12 2010, 01:03 PM
I am SO glad they are taking a stand. It is my dubious hope that the US an Europe will as well. This garb has no place in an open
society.
There is, of course, an inherent tension in that statement, that in an open society people are free to do what they want as long as they don't harm others. Do you have a right to see their face? Are you personally (or is the common good) harmed by the inability to see their face?

Apart from masking one's identity in the commission of a crime, do people have the right to anonymity in an open society?

(A celebrated local case last year,a man was speeding past cameras wearing a monkey mask and could not be identified for the purpose of citing him -- I don't think the case has been settled, but I think he will lose.

Arguments can be made on both sides, but for me these questions should be significant terms of discussion.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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blondie
Bull-Carp
I've expressed my opinion on the garb in the past.

But to me, learning a new language properly necessitates a teacher seeing the movements with a student's lips, cheeks, tongue, & other facials too, for purposes of discerning pronunciation, expression. I've no experience with other languages, but I'd think it important for French [Quebecois].

Perhaps this lady should seek out private language instruction, in her own home, and employ a female teacher, so she can bare her face, so to learn Quebecois?
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ivorythumper
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I agree with you about the practicality of that, Blondie, but as matter of public policy? What if someone were hideously burned and wore a full face mask for the sake of dignity?


The dogma lives loudly within me.
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blondie
Bull-Carp
Yes, you've your point, however, these people are few and exceptional. And IMO, there should be such exceptions with public policy.

Thinking back, I've worked with people with severe scars and malformations. Yes, there are emotional issues; I imagine they act also in consideration of others perceptions.
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blondie
Bull-Carp
The thing is IT [and Renauda could provide clarity as I'm unsure of my country's rules], I think this lady has to learn a new language [French] as part of an immigration [or should I say] residency requirement for :sigh: Quebec. I don't know if this is national or provincial policy. But it does get most non-French speakers acting miffy. Perhaps she's a recent immigrant? Perhaps she can't speak English either? Again, I don't know either. Perhaps the Quebecois gov't should provide private instruction for her in this case? Or should the Federal gov't? Again, I don't know. The concern would be whoever's gov't poo-pooing the private instruction idea d/t to whatever bias, not wanting to stir the political pot, or wanting to cough up coin for it. This is Canada, afterall. No resources. No cash. No one cares too-too much. Bigger issues surround the silliness. It could be learning a new language .. period. Frankly, I don't think Les Quebecois give 2 hoots of her once she's met the requirements. Or the Federal Gov't. I doubt she does either. But this is Quebec & Canada. No non-Quebecois person really wants to speak Quebecois in our country. Wanting to do that [when you can speak, say, English, .. or say, .. another language] is just too weird. So she's stirring the pot on a number of levels, she's getting people miffed at her, and no one really wants to address it.

I think I've summed up the wishy-washy Canada stance on it. This is how real Canadians live btw. We have better things to do than stir the pot. She needs to get with the program & suck it up .. on a number of levels.

:)
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Renauda
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blondie
Mar 13 2010, 01:05 AM
The thing is IT [and Renauda could provide clarity as I'm unsure of my country's rules], I think this lady has to learn a new language [French] as part of an immigration [or should I say] residency requirement for :sigh: Quebec. I don't know if this is national or provincial policy.
Entirely provincial and in Quebec cultural assimilation of non francophone immigrants is part of public policy; multiculturalism does not play out there is it does in English Canada.

Federal policy probably would permit her to wear what she wishes with some notable exceptions as to place and event- federal polliings stations and designated security areas under federal jurisdiction such as airports.

As well, the burn victim argument IT presented is a straw man. A burn victim or anyone with a facial deformity would be permitted a to wear a face mask if they so desired.

This immigrant woman is hiding behind a combination of tribal and religious superstition not scar tissue or a physical deformity. Her naqib is only a small part of her obstinacy.
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sue
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blondie
Mar 13 2010, 12:01 AM
Perhaps this lady should seek out private language instruction, in her own home, and employ a female teacher, so she can bare her face, so to learn Quebecois?
Clearly.

She's been offered publicly funded language classes in a new country that's willing to welcome her. If she doesn't want to play by the new rules, then she needs to find (and fund) her own way, or go back to where she came from.
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Mikhailoh
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Amen.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
sue
Mar 13 2010, 09:00 AM
blondie
Mar 13 2010, 12:01 AM
Perhaps this lady should seek out private language instruction, in her own home, and employ a female teacher, so she can bare her face, so to learn Quebecois?
Clearly.

She's been offered publicly funded language classes in a new country that's willing to welcome her. If she doesn't want to play by the new rules, then she needs to find (and fund) her own way, or go back to where she came from.
That and the fact that in Quebec there are French language lessons offered by the Islamic community specifically for muslim immigrants. Apparently those are either not good enough or she would be put in a classroom with other muslims who belong to another sect or perhaps do not share her handlers' fanaticism.

I wouldn't be surprised if this veiled *Droid* is nothing but a provocateur. There's an Islamicist agenda at play here.
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blondie
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Is she married?
Perhaps her husband should pay for this?
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
Two Solitudes and the Niqab
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
blondie
Mar 13 2010, 01:05 AM
The thing is IT [and Renauda could provide clarity as I'm unsure of my country's rules], I think this lady has to learn a new language [French] as part of an immigration [or should I say] residency requirement for :sigh: Quebec. I don't know if this is national or provincial policy. But it does get most non-French speakers acting miffy. Perhaps she's a recent immigrant? Perhaps she can't speak English either? Again, I don't know either. Perhaps the Quebecois gov't should provide private instruction for her in this case? Or should the Federal gov't? Again, I don't know. The concern would be whoever's gov't poo-pooing the private instruction idea d/t to whatever bias, not wanting to stir the political pot, or wanting to cough up coin for it. This is Canada, afterall. No resources. No cash. No one cares too-too much. Bigger issues surround the silliness. It could be learning a new language .. period. Frankly, I don't think Les Quebecois give 2 hoots of her once she's met the requirements. Or the Federal Gov't. I doubt she does either. But this is Quebec & Canada. No non-Quebecois person really wants to speak Quebecois in our country. Wanting to do that [when you can speak, say, English, .. or say, .. another language] is just too weird. So she's stirring the pot on a number of levels, she's getting people miffed at her, and no one really wants to address it.

I think I've summed up the wishy-washy Canada stance on it. This is how real Canadians live btw. We have better things to do than stir the pot. She needs to get with the program & suck it up .. on a number of levels.

:)
I appreciate the politics of the situation Blondie, and I am all for cultural assimilation. I think it is all nonsense about "African-Americans", "Asian-Americans". "Italian Americans". etc. it is very important to build social cohesiveness.

I suspect that future generations (one or two) will simply drop it. The democratic and capitalist inclination is just too strong. Ghettos just do not last in modern life. There will always be of course some small remnant that holds on to the old ways, but again that gets back to the nature of pluralistic society -- that people are free to do what they want as long as they are hurting no one.

So for me, the point is self determination, and the wrongfulness of the government to limit actions that are matters of personal choice as long as no one is harmed. It is not for the government to tell people what they can and cannot wear for whatever reasons they personally choose -- whether for medial, aesthetic, cultural or religious reasons.

The irony is that in the name of social cohesiveness people are being told they must wear hajib and najib, and in the name of social cohesiveness people are being told they cannot wear these things -- and in both cases the weight of the law and its draconian power are being brought to bear to coerce the individual in a matter that should properly be one's free choice. I don't have an answer, but I think the real problem first has to be stated so that answers are valid. For me that "problem statement" is a matter of the individual vs the collective.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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sue
Mar 13 2010, 09:00 AM
blondie
Mar 13 2010, 12:01 AM
Perhaps this lady should seek out private language instruction, in her own home, and employ a female teacher, so she can bare her face, so to learn Quebecois?
Clearly.

She's been offered publicly funded language classes in a new country that's willing to welcome her. If she doesn't want to play by the new rules, then she needs to find (and fund) her own way, or go back to where she came from.
That is a good point. In a pluralistic culture people need to accommodate to cultural norms (or not) but do not have the right to require the culture to conform to them.

I do, however, think there is a tension here between the prevailing culture to not need to conform, and the prevailing culture to accommodate individual preferences as long as others are not being harmed.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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blondie
Bull-Carp
Interesting commentary IT. Quebec is a different world.

Renauda cites an excellent article - 2 of my favorite lines:
Quote:
 
“Accommodation should not lead to separation”

:giggle: Where have we heard this before, eh?
Quote:
 
"Quebec authorities were widely being compared to the Taliban."

Like any of us would enjoy sucking it up in their French classes eh.

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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Yeah, I have no understanding of Quebec apart from what I've learned here. Canada has some sort of truce between the francophones and the anglophones (if I understand correctly) that has been in tension since the founding.

I can understand why as a nation you would have serious concerns about adding a non-European bloc which has deeply entrenched cultural and juridical norms, and an aggressive temperament, as well as a stated mission to subjugate all non Moslems.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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blondie
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Heh. I just looked: She has to be fluent [like proficient to their standards] in French before she can qualify professionally as a Quebec pharmacist. A big deal if she's immigrated as a professional. She'd really need to suck it up to be employed. 'Wonder what the rest of the family does?
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sue
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ivorythumper
Mar 13 2010, 09:49 AM
So for me, the point is self determination, and the wrongfulness of the government to limit actions that are matters of personal choice as long as no one is harmed. It is not for the government to tell people what they can and cannot wear for whatever reasons they personally choose -- whether for medial, aesthetic, cultural or religious reasons.

just to take this back in the classroom for a moment, if I was an instructor I wouldn't think twice about asking a gangsta with an oversized hoodie and dark sunglasses to remove both so I could see his face. My explanation that I need to see his facial movements so I can determine if he's following my instructions re pronunciation techniques, and that the hood is muffling his voice so others can't hear him clearly, seems pretty straightforward and reasonable. Why should I have to treat this woman any differently, when she is in my classroom?

No, no one is being harmed by these get-ups, but if they are inconveniencing and wasting other people's time and are serving no real purpose other than displaying ones' personal choice, it's simply common sense to get with the program. All legal, government related issues aside.
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blondie
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I love stirring the pot -
I wonder what language Muslim pharmacists write out when doing up prescriptions in muslim communities in Quebec?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
sue
Mar 13 2010, 10:25 AM
ivorythumper
Mar 13 2010, 09:49 AM
So for me, the point is self determination, and the wrongfulness of the government to limit actions that are matters of personal choice as long as no one is harmed. It is not for the government to tell people what they can and cannot wear for whatever reasons they personally choose -- whether for medial, aesthetic, cultural or religious reasons.

just to take this back in the classroom for a moment, if I was an instructor I wouldn't think twice about asking a gangsta with an oversized hoodie and dark sunglasses to remove both so I could see his face. My explanation that I need to see his facial movements so I can determine if he's following my instructions re pronunciation techniques, and that the hood is muffling his voice so others can't hear him clearly, seems pretty straightforward and reasonable. Why should I have to treat this woman any differently, when she is in my classroom?

No, no one is being harmed by these get-ups, but if they are inconveniencing and wasting other people's time and are serving no real purpose other than displaying ones' personal choice, it's simply common sense to get with the program. All legal, government related issues aside.
Yeah, I agree about the gansta in the hoodie. And I do give the teacher a lot of latitude for the purposes of teaching efficiently.

I am not sure why you would have to treat a woman in naqib any differently. You could simply tell her that it is up to her whether she wants to benefit from your instruction or not.

In short, I really don't buy the argument that you have to be able to see someone's face to teach them French. That would mean that a person with hideous burns who covers his face for decorum would be at a disadvantage to learn, and a blind teacher would be at a disadvantage to teach (OK, maybe for reading, but learning French is more about sound, not sight).

I suppose this comes down to people want to have reasons or justifications for their decisions -- they don't want to appear arbitrary and dictatorial and just say "do this because I have the right to compel you to do this". But that is what it seems to come down to, for me.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Renauda
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ivorythumper
Mar 13 2010, 10:03 AM

I can understand why as a nation you would have serious concerns about adding a non-European bloc which has deeply entrenched cultural and juridical norms, and an aggressive temperament, as well as a stated mission to subjugate all non Moslems.
This controversy is taking place in Quebec, a constitutionally recognized distinct nation in Confederation. English Canada, is merely a spectating stakeholder in the outcome.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Would you use a pharmacist in a niqab? Not me.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Renauda
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Frankly I don't how she could perform her job as a pharmacist if she couldn't speak to her non muslim colleagues.

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sue
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Renauda
Mar 13 2010, 03:46 PM
Frankly I don't how she could perform her job as a pharmacist if she couldn't speak to her non muslim colleagues.

Especially if they were male. And what about customers? I guess she'd have to be kept in the back room, not dealing with the public.
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