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Should the Census ask about sexual orientation?
Topic Started: Mar 9 2010, 05:38 PM (1,388 Views)
Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
But that data is local data Kenny. The Census Bureau has no right to that information. Period!
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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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Copper
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Shortstop
QuirtEvans
Mar 10 2010, 08:36 AM

As I said, I am certain that you've provided "MOST of the same information" to other entities.



There is a big dfifference between "other entities" having information and the federal government collecting it.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Copper
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kenny
Mar 10 2010, 09:51 AM
How can it be anonymous, at least for owner occupied homes?
They have my address and govmnt/public records show the owner of this house.

The left and right hands are connected to the same body.

It is not anonymous.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Copper
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QuirtEvans
Mar 10 2010, 08:36 AM

1. How many people live there? Plain old census data, you couldn't possibly have a problem with that.

Unless you were over the limit of local zoning ordinances.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Quagmire
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ivorythumper
Mar 10 2010, 09:38 AM
Quagmire
Mar 10 2010, 06:09 AM
ivorythumper
Mar 9 2010, 11:37 PM
Quagmire
Mar 9 2010, 06:29 PM
When considering any gay political or social issue, isnt it relevant for both sides to understand the community its considering?
That is taken care of in the privacy of the voting booth.
No. Unless you're misunderstanding me, or changing the subject somehow. I'm talking about collecting comprehensive data about the demographics of a community. That is certainly not accomplished by the voting booth.
I don't think I am misunderstanding you, and I am certainly not changing the topic. You think that census data could/should/would be used by politicians in deciding social policy, right? (BTW, you give a whole lot more credence to "social sciences" than I do, but that's another discussion).

That assumes a monolithic consensus (or even a majority opinion) on political positions related to X by people of a certain category.

But the privacy of the voting booth is all that matters for a person in the democratic process to register their political views, along with what ever other public political action they want to take as individuals for advocacy of their pet issue.
No, you're misunderstanding. What I mean is when someone (be it a politician, a voter, or just someone formulating an opinion) about a topic such as gay marriage for instance, it's relevant to know what percentage of the population is gay. That's all.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
QuantumIvory
Mar 10 2010, 09:03 AM
Quirt
 

And those are the questions.

http://2010.census.gov/2010census/how/interactive-form.php

8 of 10, the information is readily available and has been provided to other sources, or could be collated from other sources, or is just plain old headcount/census data that you guys claim you don't have a problem with. As I said, I am certain that you've provided "MOST of the same information" to other entities.

Tell me again how I'm talking out of my ass, hotshot.

Most of those questions are fine and I have no contention with them, BUT that's not the only form the Census Bureau uses. What are you gonna do when they send you THIS form...hotshot.
The American Community Survey is a different animal. It isn't the census, and it's only sent to about 1% of households. And, as I've said before, you already make most of that data available to third parties. Most of it by consent, and some of it under tax law. For example, there's this so-called invasion of privacy:

Quote:
 
Which FUEL is used MOST for heating this house, apartment, or mobile home?


Wow, I bet you couldn't figure that out from the gas company records, oil company delivery records, and electric utility records.

Here's a piece of information you may not have known. It's your education for the day. You don't have a right to privacy with respect to things that other people know ... unless those other people are required (like doctors, for example) to keep that information confidential. There's an old quote from Kahlil Gibran ... "if you tell your secrets to the winds, do not blame the winds for telling them to the trees." And, since most of this information is readily available from other sources, it isn't a question of right to privacy, it's a question of efficient collation.

So, while it's burdensome, in terms of civil liberties, it's a big yawn.

Now, you may say that, under law, a particular piece of information in that form is protected, and third parties are barred by law from disclosing it. Guess what? Congress has the right to change the law that creates that protection! Or create an exception for the census.

Your last gasp is that some piece of information may be CONSTITUTIONALLY protected. If so, Congress cannot trump that. So, is there some piece of information in there that is constitutionally protected, so that third parties cannot disclose it? Offhand, I can think of the right to counsel, which implicates a right to private communications with your lawyer, but no one is suggesting getting the information from your lawyer.

Unless you have a constitutional right to prevent a third party from disclosing that information ... or unless no third party has the information ... this is just an efficient collation process of information that is already out there.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Quagmire
Mar 10 2010, 10:01 AM
ivorythumper
Mar 10 2010, 09:38 AM
Quagmire
Mar 10 2010, 06:09 AM
ivorythumper
Mar 9 2010, 11:37 PM
Quagmire
Mar 9 2010, 06:29 PM
When considering any gay political or social issue, isnt it relevant for both sides to understand the community its considering?
That is taken care of in the privacy of the voting booth.
No. Unless you're misunderstanding me, or changing the subject somehow. I'm talking about collecting comprehensive data about the demographics of a community. That is certainly not accomplished by the voting booth.
I don't think I am misunderstanding you, and I am certainly not changing the topic. You think that census data could/should/would be used by politicians in deciding social policy, right? (BTW, you give a whole lot more credence to "social sciences" than I do, but that's another discussion).

That assumes a monolithic consensus (or even a majority opinion) on political positions related to X by people of a certain category.

But the privacy of the voting booth is all that matters for a person in the democratic process to register their political views, along with what ever other public political action they want to take as individuals for advocacy of their pet issue.
No, you're misunderstanding. What I mean is when someone (be it a politician, a voter, or just someone formulating an opinion) about a topic such as gay marriage for instance, it's relevant to know what percentage of the population is gay. That's all.
Relevant to you, perhaps. I don't see the relevance for politicians except for the obvious ability to pander to specialty interest demographics whether the policy is in the true public interest or not.

edit to add: In short, what does it matter whether the gay or disabled or particular racial demographic is X% or X+10%? Why should that intrinsically affect a vote regarding the ordering of society in the public interest? There is an assumption (correct in my view) that all law abiding citizens should have equal access to public services regardless of any particular individuating characteristics, and that the law and public policy are written for the general case, not the specific case.
Edited by ivorythumper, Mar 10 2010, 10:56 AM.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Nobody's Sock
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Fulla-Carp
Sexual orientation?

Mine hangs to the right, I'd say 99% of the time.

It makes me a more balanced person as my brain sides with the left.



"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known."
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Quagmire
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ivorythumper
Mar 10 2010, 10:46 AM
Quagmire
Mar 10 2010, 10:01 AM
ivorythumper
Mar 10 2010, 09:38 AM
Quagmire
Mar 10 2010, 06:09 AM
ivorythumper
Mar 9 2010, 11:37 PM
Quagmire
Mar 9 2010, 06:29 PM
When considering any gay political or social issue, isnt it relevant for both sides to understand the community its considering?
That is taken care of in the privacy of the voting booth.
No. Unless you're misunderstanding me, or changing the subject somehow. I'm talking about collecting comprehensive data about the demographics of a community. That is certainly not accomplished by the voting booth.
I don't think I am misunderstanding you, and I am certainly not changing the topic. You think that census data could/should/would be used by politicians in deciding social policy, right? (BTW, you give a whole lot more credence to "social sciences" than I do, but that's another discussion).

That assumes a monolithic consensus (or even a majority opinion) on political positions related to X by people of a certain category.

But the privacy of the voting booth is all that matters for a person in the democratic process to register their political views, along with what ever other public political action they want to take as individuals for advocacy of their pet issue.
No, you're misunderstanding. What I mean is when someone (be it a politician, a voter, or just someone formulating an opinion) about a topic such as gay marriage for instance, it's relevant to know what percentage of the population is gay. That's all.
Relevant to you, perhaps. I don't see the relevance for politicians except for the obvious ability to pander to specialty interest demographics whether the policy is in the true public interest or not.
I didnt introduce politicians into this. You did. My point is not about politics, its about census and demographics.

If the percentage of gays in the population was making a marked increase or decrease, dont you think thats relevant data? Especially to the ongoing quest to know where it comes from? Thats just one example, there are many others. I dont see how anyone can argue its preferable to be ignorant about the constituency of a population than knowledgeable about it.
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The 89th Key
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The list of questions on the census is akin to slowly boiling a frog.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Quagmire
Mar 10 2010, 10:58 AM
ivorythumper
Mar 10 2010, 10:46 AM
Quagmire
Mar 10 2010, 10:01 AM
ivorythumper
Mar 10 2010, 09:38 AM
Quagmire
Mar 10 2010, 06:09 AM
ivorythumper
Mar 9 2010, 11:37 PM
Quagmire
Mar 9 2010, 06:29 PM
When considering any gay political or social issue, isnt it relevant for both sides to understand the community its considering?
That is taken care of in the privacy of the voting booth.
No. Unless you're misunderstanding me, or changing the subject somehow. I'm talking about collecting comprehensive data about the demographics of a community. That is certainly not accomplished by the voting booth.
I don't think I am misunderstanding you, and I am certainly not changing the topic. You think that census data could/should/would be used by politicians in deciding social policy, right? (BTW, you give a whole lot more credence to "social sciences" than I do, but that's another discussion).

That assumes a monolithic consensus (or even a majority opinion) on political positions related to X by people of a certain category.

But the privacy of the voting booth is all that matters for a person in the democratic process to register their political views, along with what ever other public political action they want to take as individuals for advocacy of their pet issue.
No, you're misunderstanding. What I mean is when someone (be it a politician, a voter, or just someone formulating an opinion) about a topic such as gay marriage for instance, it's relevant to know what percentage of the population is gay. That's all.
Relevant to you, perhaps. I don't see the relevance for politicians except for the obvious ability to pander to specialty interest demographics whether the policy is in the true public interest or not.
I didnt introduce politicians into this. You did. My point is not about politics, its about census and demographics.

If the percentage of gays in the population was making a marked increase or decrease, dont you think thats relevant data? Especially to the ongoing quest to know where it comes from? Thats just one example, there are many others. I dont see how anyone can argue its preferable to be ignorant about the constituency of a population that knowledgeable about it.
Well, you are a big fan of "social sciences". I am not.

But I didn't introduce politicians into this, you did. Politicians are professionally concerned with "[gay] political or social issues". "Social scientists" and other policy wonks create data for the politicians to consider if they wish. Special interest groups are free to fund and undertake surveys on their own dime for the purpose of social sciences and policy implications. The rest of us vote on these matters from the privacy of the voting booth, or work through public advocacy.

I see no moral or ethical obligation to provide the government with anything but my name as a citizen to be counted for the purposes of proportional representation and allocation of resources.

The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Quagmire
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ivorythumper
Mar 10 2010, 11:10 AM
Well, you are a big fan of "social sciences". I am not.


yeah, so what?

Quote:
 
But I didn't introduce politicians into this, you did.
No I didnt.

Quote:
 
Politicians are professionally concerned with "[gay] political or social issues".
So what. Thats not the point I was making.

Quote:
 
I see no moral or ethical obligation to provide the government with anything but my name as a citizen to be counted for the purposes of proportional representation and allocation of resources.

Neither do I, and never implied anything about morals or ethics. You, again, introduced this.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Well, until you can communicate what you really where talking about regarding "I'm talking about collecting comprehensive data about the demographics of a community" in reference to "When considering any gay political or social issue", I'll have to keep assuming you really are talking about politics.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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The 89th Key
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Quagmire
Mar 10 2010, 11:20 AM
ivorythumper
Mar 10 2010, 11:10 AM
Well, you are a big fan of "social sciences". I am not.


yeah, so what?
So what?

So let's dance!

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Quagmire
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ivorythumper
Mar 10 2010, 11:31 AM
Well, until you can communicate what you really where talking about regarding "I'm talking about collecting comprehensive data about the demographics of a community" in reference to "When considering any gay political or social issue", I'll have to keep assuming you really are talking about politics.
I thought I was clear. In fact I gave you an explicit example in a subsequent post that didnt involve politics at all. Nothing could be more clear than that. Dunno how else to say it. You may assume whatever serves you.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
QuantumIvory
Mar 10 2010, 09:03 AM
Quirt
 

And those are the questions.

http://2010.census.gov/2010census/how/interactive-form.php

8 of 10, the information is readily available and has been provided to other sources, or could be collated from other sources, or is just plain old headcount/census data that you guys claim you don't have a problem with. As I said, I am certain that you've provided "MOST of the same information" to other entities.

Tell me again how I'm talking out of my ass, hotshot.

Most of those questions are fine and I have no contention with them, BUT that's not the only form the Census Bureau uses. What are you gonna do when they send you THIS form...hotshot.
That one is bad, but look at the one they send to business owners....


http://bhs.econ.census.gov/BHS/SBO/sbo1_07.pdf


I got one of these in the mail about a year ago. I threw it in the trash. About a month later I got another one, with a warning that I would be in trouble if I didn't fill it out and send it in. I threw it in the trash. A month or so later I got another one threatening me if I didn't fill it out and send it back.

I threw it in the trash.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Quagmire
Mar 10 2010, 11:45 AM
ivorythumper
Mar 10 2010, 11:31 AM
Well, until you can communicate what you really where talking about regarding "I'm talking about collecting comprehensive data about the demographics of a community" in reference to "When considering any gay political or social issue", I'll have to keep assuming you really are talking about politics.
I thought I was clear. In fact I gave you an explicit example in a subsequent post that didnt involve politics at all. Nothing could be more clear than that. Dunno how else to say it. You may assume whatever serves you.
I'll just take you at the words you actually write. :)
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Quagmire
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ivorythumper
Mar 10 2010, 12:22 PM
Quagmire
Mar 10 2010, 11:45 AM
ivorythumper
Mar 10 2010, 11:31 AM
Well, until you can communicate what you really where talking about regarding "I'm talking about collecting comprehensive data about the demographics of a community" in reference to "When considering any gay political or social issue", I'll have to keep assuming you really are talking about politics.
I thought I was clear. In fact I gave you an explicit example in a subsequent post that didnt involve politics at all. Nothing could be more clear than that. Dunno how else to say it. You may assume whatever serves you.
I'll just take you at the words you actually write. :)
thats the whole point, you ignore what I actually right, and project your own on to it. What I actually wrote was an example that had nothing to do with politicians. Are you illiterate?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Quagmire
Mar 10 2010, 12:24 PM
ivorythumper
Mar 10 2010, 12:22 PM
Quagmire
Mar 10 2010, 11:45 AM
ivorythumper
Mar 10 2010, 11:31 AM
Well, until you can communicate what you really where talking about regarding "I'm talking about collecting comprehensive data about the demographics of a community" in reference to "When considering any gay political or social issue", I'll have to keep assuming you really are talking about politics.
I thought I was clear. In fact I gave you an explicit example in a subsequent post that didnt involve politics at all. Nothing could be more clear than that. Dunno how else to say it. You may assume whatever serves you.
I'll just take you at the words you actually write. :)
thats the whole point, you ignore what I actually right, and project your own on to it. What I actually wrote was an example that had nothing to do with politicians. Are you illiterate?
You are the one who wrote about a political situation ("gay political or social issue") and using demographic information ("collecting comprehensive data about the demographics of a community") for policy decisions ("it's relevant to know what percentage of the population is gay").

Sorry if when you write about political matters I can't but help thinking that you are writing about political matters.

You claim you have some other point you are trying to make, but you are being rather recondite about that if you really are talking about something other than using demographic information collected by a governmental census for policy purposes.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Quagmire
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Oh good god!

Nowhere in what you bolded is the word POLITICIAN. Which is what I said I wasnt talking about. Show me were I said POLITICIAN. Or even making POLICY, which again you introduced in this last post and projected on to me. I used the word political in the context of "when considering a gay political or social issue". We discuss political issues here all the time, that doesnt mean we're politicians. This is ridiculous, and beneath you. (or at least beneath me.). You are the one who started with the voting booth, politicians, making policy, etc. That is nowhere in my posts.

I made my point very clear. the example I gave was:
Quote:
 
If the percentage of gays in the population was making a marked increase or decrease, dont you think thats relevant data? Especially to the ongoing quest to know where it comes from? Thats just one example, there are many others. I dont see how anyone can argue its preferable to be ignorant about the constituency of a population that knowledgeable about it.


Where in there is ANYTHING about politicians or making policy or voting or ethics or morals, or anything else you made up and projected on me.

Does this tedious crap really entertain you? Why do you always feel you have to try to win something? There's nothing to be won here. If you dont agree, fine, dont agree, state your disagreement. Dont twist my words, make crap up, play games, and try to win something for no apparent reason.

Anyway, I'm done. If you cant understand me or choose not to, I dont care. I'd just appreciate if you stop making up lies about what I post. You do that in every exchange we've ever had. I know you're smart enough to read, so you're just telling lies.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Lies? :chill:

I asked you if "You think that census data could/should/would be used by politicians in deciding social policy, right?"

If the answer is 'no', then why should the government be "collecting comprehensive data about the demographics of a community"?

If the answer is 'yes', then why are you complaining about the language of social policy?

I guess if you have to resort to personal attacks when people don't accept the Word of Quag about the value of the government collecting personal information relevant to policy making, then it really doesn't matter what anyone else has to say since they are presumably just interrupting your monologue.
Edited by ivorythumper, Mar 10 2010, 01:02 PM.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Quagmire
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ivorythumper
Mar 10 2010, 12:58 PM
Lies? :chill:



Yes, lies.

Quote:
 
I asked you if "You think that census data could/should/would be used by politicians in deciding social policy, right?"

If the answer is 'no', then why should the government collect the data?
I told you. I gave an example. I copied and pasted the example so you could read it again. And yet you still sit there pretending otherwise. Lies.

Quote:
 
If the answer is 'yes', then why are you complaining about the language of social policy?
I'm not complaining about the language of social policy. I dont even know what you mean here. More lies.

Quote:
 
I guess if you have to resort to personal attacks when people don't accept the Word of Quag about the value of the government collecting personal information relevant to policy making, then it really doesn't matter what anyone else has to say since they are presumably just interrupting your monologue.
Show any evidence that you read and understand the Word of Quag by speaking to it, rather than projecting your inventions onto me and we'll talk. Until then, all I see are lies.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
You're frothing there, pal.

I already told you I don't think it's relevant data. Sound social policy does not depend on what percentage of the population is in what arbitrary category. It simply does not matter if there is a marked increase or decrease, or even the need to set a benchmark, in the percentage of gays in the population. The government should stay out of the bedroom, as long as just laws are not being broken and no human beings are being harmed.

We have a simple disagreement about the value of the social sciences and the role of the social sciences and the government in harvesting personal data for social policy.

That is a simple disagreement, which sane and emotionally balanced people can do so civilly. You don't seem to be capable of that, and so have to attack me as illiterate and a liar.

I'll back away now, since I have no interest in aggravating someone in an emotionally precarious place.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Quagmire
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ivorythumper
Mar 10 2010, 01:16 PM
You're frothing there, pal.
More lies.
Quote:
 
I already told you I don't think it's relevant data. Sound social policy does not depend on what percentage of the population is in what arbitrary category.
I've said nothing about social policy, so I dont know why you offer me this. If you're implying I've said anything about social policy, that would be another lie.

Quote:
 
It simply does not matter if there is a marked increase or decrease, or even the need to set a benchmark, in the percentage of gays in the population.
It apparently doesnt matter to you, but its ridiculous to proclaim it doesnt matter at all. So you're advocating ignorance to such information. If you cant imagine any relevance to such data then I'd have to conclude you're not very intellectually powerful.
Quote:
 
The government should stay out of the bedroom, as long as just laws are not being broken and no human beings are being harmed.
I agree, and I've not advocated they enter anyone's bedroom.

Quote:
 
We have a simple disagreement about the value of the social sciences and the role of the social sciences and the government in harvesting personal data for social policy.
Correct. so why do you feel the need to distort what I say and project lies onto me. Just disagree.

Quote:
 
That is a simple disagreement, which sane and emotionally balanced people can do so civilly. You don't seem to be capable of that, and so have to attack me as illiterate and a liar.
More lies. I've exhibited my capability to civilly disagree with countless other posters on this forum. You've exhibited this sort of tedious conflict with countless others. You do the math.

Quote:
 
I'll back away now, since I have no interest in aggravating someone in an emotionally precarious place.
I suspect you have great interest in aggravating people here, since you do it so often. And for you to presume anything about my emotional state just demonstrates more of your own self importance.



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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
If someone sees conversations as a competitive game he must win just take the high road.

Don't play with him.
Let him go play with himself.
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