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Should the Census ask about sexual orientation?
Topic Started: Mar 9 2010, 05:38 PM (1,389 Views)
QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Mikhailoh
Mar 10 2010, 04:27 AM
I can't imagine how you would get elected in the first place if you don't know who lives in your district.
You only need to know 51% of the voters. But that is most assuredly not the sum total of your constituents.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
No, but it seems toi be enough these days to claim a mandate or 'political capital'. :lol:
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Der Fuhrer
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Copper
Mar 9 2010, 06:56 PM
Quagmire
Mar 9 2010, 06:29 PM

I really dont see what the aversion to this data could be. What evil or govt plot could this data enable?

A lot of people think it's none of the government's business what group you belong to.

Posted Image

I agree.
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miss me yet?
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QuirtEvans
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Mikhailoh
Mar 10 2010, 05:28 AM
No, but it seems toi be enough these days to claim a mandate or 'political capital'. :lol:
It sure seemed that way in 2000, when someone didn't even get 51% of the vote, didn't it? :bluewink:
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Quagmire
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ivorythumper
Mar 9 2010, 11:37 PM
Quagmire
Mar 9 2010, 06:29 PM
When considering any gay political or social issue, isnt it relevant for both sides to understand the community its considering?
That is taken care of in the privacy of the voting booth.
No. Unless you're misunderstanding me, or changing the subject somehow. I'm talking about collecting comprehensive data about the demographics of a community. That is certainly not accomplished by the voting booth.
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Quagmire
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Copper
Mar 9 2010, 06:56 PM
A lot of people think it's none of the government's business what group you belong to.

Its anonymous. So the gov't would not be receiving any information about YOU personally.
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Quagmire
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Mikhailoh
Mar 10 2010, 03:35 AM
Indeed. The only thing you can do with data that separates people is treat them separately.
Not true. Demographic information is very useful, and has been used in the social sciences since their conception. How can you understand a community, a race, a people, without knowing basic information about them, like their numbers?

I have yet to hear anyone articulate anything real about what harm can come from these numbers. All I'm reading is big gov't conspiracy theory alarmism (alarmistism?). Can we hear something real and specific?
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Mikhailoh
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QuirtEvans
Mar 10 2010, 05:33 AM
Mikhailoh
Mar 10 2010, 05:28 AM
No, but it seems toi be enough these days to claim a mandate or 'political capital'. :lol:
It sure seemed that way in 2000, when someone didn't even get 51% of the vote, didn't it? :bluewink:
Well, I was thinking more of 2004 and 2008, but suppose that one counts too, although he did not speak of it so much.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Copper
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Shortstop
Quagmire
Mar 10 2010, 06:11 AM

Its anonymous. So the gov't would not be receiving any information about YOU personally.

Why do you say that?

It's not anonymous.

The data is not supposed to be published for a period of time based on federal law.

That law could be changed or even violated at any time.

You shouldn't be telling people that it is anonymous.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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QuantumIvory
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Whether it be sexual orientation, political orientation (just wait), race, gender, how many toilets you have, or any other area into which the government attempts to insert its ever elongated proboscis, I say it’s none of their fvking business. And it astounds me that those who, ostensibly, pride themselves on their civil libertarianism, brush these encroachments off as legitimate (even gladly welcomed) functions of the state.
"I regard consciousness as fundamental. We cannot get behind consciousness." -Max Planck

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Quagmire
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Copper
Mar 10 2010, 07:01 AM
Quagmire
Mar 10 2010, 06:11 AM

Its anonymous. So the gov't would not be receiving any information about YOU personally.

Why do you say that?

It's not anonymous.

The data is not supposed to be published for a period of time based on federal law.

That law could be changed or even violated at any time.

You shouldn't be telling people that it is anonymous.
Then thats my mistake. In my original post, I outlined how my feelings differ based on whether its anonymous or not. I dont recall ever filling out a census form, so I dont know.

I took someone else's remark in this thread as confirmation that its anonymous. That is apparently incorrect?

If we are asked to stand up and give our sexual orientation, race, religion, etc along with our NAME and ADDRESS?? Yes, I would say fvck off to that.

If it would be requested anonymously, then I would say that is very useful data as outlined in my previous posts.
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Quagmire
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Ok, I just looked it up. Question #5 on the mail-in from is First Name, Last name, MI.

Question #4 is phone number.

Ok, screw that. No, sexual orientation should not be on there. Although, I think Name should be removed.
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The 89th Key
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Mikhailoh
Mar 9 2010, 06:14 PM
Luke's Dad
Mar 9 2010, 06:01 PM
Someday, I'd even like to see race taken out of the census.
This very day I'd like to see all questions regarding race, social class, employment, etc. removed.
I agree.

Just ask how many people live there. Done.

Oh, Bernard, to answer your question...I voted no.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Mikhailoh
Mar 10 2010, 06:17 AM
QuirtEvans
Mar 10 2010, 05:33 AM
Mikhailoh
Mar 10 2010, 05:28 AM
No, but it seems toi be enough these days to claim a mandate or 'political capital'. :lol:
It sure seemed that way in 2000, when someone didn't even get 51% of the vote, didn't it? :bluewink:
Well, I was thinking more of 2004 and 2008, but suppose that one counts too, although he did not speak of it so much.
You're right, it's pretty clear that conservatives claimed Bush was given a mandate in 2000.

2004 was arguably the narrowest win for a sitting President since Woodrow Wilson, and the narrowest for any wartime incumbent President in history. And yet, according to Darth Cheney:

"President Bush ran forthrightly on a clear agenda for this nation's future and the nation responded by giving him a mandate."

And here's what the Wall Street Journal said about 2004:

"Just because an election is close doesn't mean it isn't decisive. ... We do already know ... that Mr. Bush has been given the kind of mandate that few politicians are ever fortunate enough to receive."

In other words, according to the Wall Street Journal, even a very close election is decisive, and gives you a sweeping mandate.

And here's what Bill Bennett said:

"Having restored decency to the White House, President Bush now has a mandate to affect policy that will promote a more decent society, through both politics and law. His supporters want that, and have given him a mandate in their popular and electoral votes to see to it."

And here's what Tucker Carlson said:

"The president wins reelection with a majority of the vote. It is a mandate."

And here's what Peggy Noonan said:

"He [Bush] has, I would argue, a mandate now. You can bet he's going forward boldly. He announced it today in his victory speech."

And here's what Bill Kristol said:

"The hair-pullers and teeth-gnashers won't like it, of course, but we're nevertheless inclined to call this a Mandate. Indeed, in one sense, we think it an even larger and clearer mandate than those won in the landslide reelection campaigns of Nixon in 1972, Reagan in 1984, and Clinton in 1996."

Why, it's almost as if they had talking points or something.

Bush got 50.73% of the vote in 2004. Obama got 52.92% in 2008.

It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
A question about sexual orientation (or any other property of a human that is irrelevant for politics) should not be in a census. Such questions will just produce more "minorities" whining about their alleged "victim" status.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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QuirtEvans
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QuantumIvory
Mar 10 2010, 07:13 AM
Whether it be sexual orientation, political orientation (just wait), race, gender, how many toilets you have, or any other area into which the government attempts to insert its ever elongated proboscis, I say it’s none of their fvking business. And it astounds me that those who, ostensibly, pride themselves on their civil libertarianism, brush these encroachments off as legitimate (even gladly welcomed) functions of the state.
It astounds me how paranoid you are about this sort of thing.

You give out most of the same information several dozen times a year, probably, to private organizations, to whom you have given the right to sell that data to whomever they like. (Sexual orientation is probably encompassed, at least partially, within "married" or "divorced".) Would you rather the government purchase it from your credit card company, your bank, your town assessor, or someone else? Or should they simply collect it in the most efficient way possible ... from you?

As for civil libertarianism, I don't think you really understand the term. While I can imagine how collection of data could be used to interfere with civil liberties, there are several intermediate steps in between, and that's where protection of civil liberties properly resides. Hell, the entire notion of government itself poses a risk to civil liberties. If you want to eliminate the nascent threat entirely, on the grounds that something could go wrong in the future if X, Y, and Z were to happen, then you should be calling for the complete elimination of government, too.

It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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QuantumIvory
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Quirt
 
You give out most of the same information several dozen times a year...

You're talking out of your counseloric ass.
"I regard consciousness as fundamental. We cannot get behind consciousness." -Max Planck

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blondie
Bull-Carp
Census surveys ask too much information IMO.
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QuirtEvans
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QuantumIvory
Mar 10 2010, 07:48 AM
Quirt
 
You give out most of the same information several dozen times a year...

You're talking out of your counseloric ass.
Really? Why don't we go through the ten census questions, one by one, and you tell me where they don't know the information.

1. How many people live there? Plain old census data, you couldn't possibly have a problem with that. And, in fact, if you collated data from other sources, you'd get there anyway. School records. Employment records. Credit card records. Utility records.

2. Any additional people living there who are not listed on question 1? Same. It's just a headcount.

3. Is this a house, a mobile home, or an apartment? Guess what, Google Earth can tell you that.

4. What is your telephone number? Tell me that your bank and your credit card company don't have that. Go ahead, try. I could use a good laugh.

5. The names of the people living there? Wow, that's a tough one. I bet your bank doesn't have your name and your wife's name, huh? And the school doesn't know the name of your kids? And the local senior center doesn't know the name and address of Aunt Betty who lives in the guest room? How about your employer? Does your employer know the names of your family members? For medical insurance purposes, for example?

6. What is the person's sex? Another real tough one. I bet your bank doesn't have a record of that. Or your credit card company. Or your employer.

7. What is the person's age and date of birth? Another toughie! See item 5. Or call the Passport Office. Or the school. Or the DMV. Go ahead, try to tell me that your credit card company doesn't know your date of birth.

8. Is the person of Hispanic or Latino origin? That one is typically optional on most forms, which is why I said "MOST of the same information".

9. What is the person's race? See item 8.

10. Does the person sometimes live or stay somewhere else? Perfectly appropriate in a census. You don't want to double-count. And I bet you couldn't find that on a school form. Or an apartment rental record. Or a bank record.

And those are the questions.

http://2010.census.gov/2010census/how/interactive-form.php

8 of 10, the information is readily available and has been provided to other sources, or could be collated from other sources, or is just plain old headcount/census data that you guys claim you don't have a problem with. As I said, I am certain that you've provided "MOST of the same information" to other entities.

Tell me again how I'm talking out of my ass, hotshot.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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QuantumIvory
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Quirt
 

And those are the questions.

http://2010.census.gov/2010census/how/interactive-form.php

8 of 10, the information is readily available and has been provided to other sources, or could be collated from other sources, or is just plain old headcount/census data that you guys claim you don't have a problem with. As I said, I am certain that you've provided "MOST of the same information" to other entities.

Tell me again how I'm talking out of my ass, hotshot.

Most of those questions are fine and I have no contention with them, BUT that's not the only form the Census Bureau uses. What are you gonna do when they send you THIS form...hotshot.
"I regard consciousness as fundamental. We cannot get behind consciousness." -Max Planck

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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Holy crap.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Quagmire
Mar 10 2010, 06:09 AM
ivorythumper
Mar 9 2010, 11:37 PM
Quagmire
Mar 9 2010, 06:29 PM
When considering any gay political or social issue, isnt it relevant for both sides to understand the community its considering?
That is taken care of in the privacy of the voting booth.
No. Unless you're misunderstanding me, or changing the subject somehow. I'm talking about collecting comprehensive data about the demographics of a community. That is certainly not accomplished by the voting booth.
I don't think I am misunderstanding you, and I am certainly not changing the topic. You think that census data could/should/would be used by politicians in deciding social policy, right? (BTW, you give a whole lot more credence to "social sciences" than I do, but that's another discussion).

That assumes a monolithic consensus (or even a majority opinion) on political positions related to X by people of a certain category.

But the privacy of the voting booth is all that matters for a person in the democratic process to register their political views, along with what ever other public political action they want to take as individuals for advocacy of their pet issue.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
QuantumIvory
Mar 10 2010, 09:03 AM
Quirt
 

And those are the questions.

http://2010.census.gov/2010census/how/interactive-form.php

8 of 10, the information is readily available and has been provided to other sources, or could be collated from other sources, or is just plain old headcount/census data that you guys claim you don't have a problem with. As I said, I am certain that you've provided "MOST of the same information" to other entities.

Tell me again how I'm talking out of my ass, hotshot.

Most of those questions are fine and I have no contention with them, BUT that's not the only form the Census Bureau uses. What are you gonna do when they send you THIS form...hotshot.
OK, the form you linked to has the title "The American Community Survey."

Is that the census form used in the nationwide once-per-decade census, or is that something else not used for the census?

As far as I am aware, THIS is the census form. Wholly different from the "American Community Survey" form you linked to.

I think you're conflating different survey with the national census. It's OK to be outraged at something, but at least try not to confuse the thing at which you outrage.
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
The thing I am outraged about Ax is that they do not have the power to do anything but count us yet we just roll over and let them do whatever the hell they want to do.
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
How can it be anonymous, at least for owner occupied homes?
They have my address and govmnt/public records show the owner of this house.

The left and right hands are connected to the same body.
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