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"Presumed Donor"
Topic Started: Mar 6 2010, 12:15 PM (950 Views)
George K
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Finally
Quirt has a good solution. In order to have a drivers license, you HAVE to say, yea or nay. That's fine with me, but the idea of the state claiming my liver, just because I'm dead strikes me as being more that a little wrong.

As I said, I'm a donor, and gladly so, but I do it by choice. Have everyone make a choice.
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"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
And what about those who don't have driver's licenses? :shrug:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
George K
Mar 6 2010, 10:03 PM
Quirt has a good solution. In order to have a drivers license, you HAVE to say, yea or nay. That's fine with me, but the idea of the state claiming my liver, just because I'm dead strikes me as being more that a little wrong.

As I said, I'm a donor, and gladly so, but I do it by choice. Have everyone make a choice.
That's a start, but people might not have driver's licenses.

Here, though, every year, the town sends out a census-like survey. Just to know who is living in the town. You could attach it to that.

Or to the income tax filing.

Or to any state-issued identification.

It's a simple check-the-box. Yes or no. You have to check one or the other. Takes a couple of seconds to read the question and tick your choice.

The hardest part, but the most important part, would be the state creating a database and making it available to hospitals. But the cost of that seems worth the effort, to me.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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da_man2010
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My heart, or lungs, or kidney can potentially save a life. For this reason I've opted in to be an organ donor. I realize that the new "policy" is worded strangely (the state owns my organs!?) but in reality this benefits a lot of people... and the opt-out method seems reasonably accessible. If the choice is being burnt to ashes or to save a life? Might as well make me choose between poison and honey.
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Jane D'Oh
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Fulla-Carp
Mikhailoh
Mar 6 2010, 06:37 PM
The world you guys want is terrifying indeed. How long will it be before treatment is withdrawn in order to get reusable organs? After all.. they were going to die anyway. heck, someone might be saved if we go early.
This is what immediately struck me.
Pfft.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
The point here is not whether lives can be saved if we harvest more organs. It is the right of the individual to own at least his or her body.

You want more donors (of which I am one)? Do more education, more promotion. In Ohio you already have to declare organ donor or no when you get your drivers license renewed. But the default should not be yes.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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QuirtEvans
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Mikhailoh
Mar 7 2010, 06:47 AM
The point here is not whether lives can be saved if we harvest more organs. It is the right of the individual to own at least his or her body.

You want more donors (of which I am one)? Do more education, more promotion. In Ohio you already have to declare organ donor or no when you get your drivers license renewed. But the default should not be yes.
Do you see any problem with forcing people to make an explicit choice, one way or the other?

I agree that, although there are societal benefits, there's something unsavory about telling people that, unless they take steps to protect themselves, they can be cut up potentially against their will. But I don't see the problem with requiring people to face the decision and make it. And then keeping a record of their choice.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
As I said, it is already that way in Ohio. And no, I don't really have a problem with people being asked. It still leaves them and only them in control. As we move down the road to a national EMR it should be recorded there. But the default should still be no.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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George K
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QuirtEvans
Mar 7 2010, 02:45 AM
That's a start, but people might not have driver's licenses.

Here, though, every year, the town sends out a census-like survey. Just to know who is living in the town. You could attach it to that....
(snip multiple other ways to get the info)

Agreed.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Mikhailoh
Mar 7 2010, 07:08 AM
But the default should still be no.
If everyone has to choose, there's no need for a default at all.

But I agree, there should be no default to "donate".
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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George K
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Finally
Who "owns" the corpse? Next of kin, or the state? That answer should be the basis of the default.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
No system is perfect and there will always be situations where the choice either was not made or cannot be determined or accessed. In those cases the default should be no. You should not harvest organs without explicit permission.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Copper
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Shortstop
QuirtEvans
Mar 7 2010, 07:47 AM
Mikhailoh
Mar 7 2010, 07:08 AM
But the default should still be no.
If everyone has to choose, there's no need for a default at all.

But I agree, there should be no default to "donate".

I think that is the whole point of the debate.

The default has to be no. If there is any question it has to be no.

That's how it is here in VA. They ask when you renew your driver's license.

I don't believe an answer is mandatory. I'm not sure that matters as long as the default is no.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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apple
one of the angels
it certainly is a debatable topic.

I thought about this all last nite, and maybe state organ ownership is not ideal.. selling organs for profit is not a good thing either.

it behooves me to behold
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George K
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Finally
China takes organs from its executed criminals. I remember outrage over that. How is this different, other than the "executed criminal" part?
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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sue
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HOLY CARP!!!
I like Quirt's idea; that you have to state either yes or no on some document. As it is now, you can sign up as a 'yes', but if you don't get around to it, can't make up your mind, are too lazy to deal with it at the moment and then forget.....you're considered a 'no'. And I suspect a lot of people in that camp would be ok with donating their organs.
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Copper
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Shortstop
apple
Mar 7 2010, 08:28 AM
it certainly is a debatable topic.

I thought about this all last nite, and maybe state organ ownership is not ideal.. selling organs for profit is not a good thing either.


If the state took them by default there would have to be compensation.

They couldn't just take them.

I'd think that would fall under eminent domain.

I don't know if there would be much of a "profit". The expense of growing an adult kidney is pretty high.

The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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apple
one of the angels
excellent point.. i personally don't think organs should be sold for profit.. human dignity and all. the poor would be the most likely to sell for profit.. the altruistic would donate.
it behooves me to behold
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
a default of "no donation" is fine as long as a large majority of people must make the choice yay or nay, as in Quirt's suggestion or something similar. That will result in pretty much the same number of donors as the proposed legislation. The important point to me is to get around the issue of most people not wanting to think about it at all. A default answer of "don't want to think about it" yields default answers of "no donation".
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
QuirtEvans
Mar 7 2010, 06:54 AM
Mikhailoh
Mar 7 2010, 06:47 AM
The point here is not whether lives can be saved if we harvest more organs. It is the right of the individual to own at least his or her body.

You want more donors (of which I am one)? Do more education, more promotion. In Ohio you already have to declare organ donor or no when you get your drivers license renewed. But the default should not be yes.
Do you see any problem with forcing people to make an explicit choice, one way or the other?

I agree that, although there are societal benefits, there's something unsavory about telling people that, unless they take steps to protect themselves, they can be cut up potentially against their will. But I don't see the problem with requiring people to face the decision and make it. And then keeping a record of their choice.
I see a problem in general any government forcing choices on the populace in the name of some supposed greater good (which is actually a reallocation of private goods).

I see a real problem with forcing a 16 year old getting their first license to make a choice. They can't even vote yet.

I see a problem with another level of bureaucracy and the serious implications of what mistakes would entail.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
George K
Mar 7 2010, 08:32 AM
China takes organs from its executed criminals. I remember outrage over that. How is this different, other than the "executed criminal" part?
Ooh, awesome. A case in point of a top-of-a-slippery-slope. Let's see if China starts systematically allowing its citizens to die so they can harvest and sell their organs. I don't see how this doesn't happen, there's nothing more slippery than a slope, especially a slippery one!! Chinese people should run for the hills!! No wait, too many slopes on hills!! Run for the plains!!! :lol2:
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Horace
Mar 7 2010, 09:33 AM
The important point to me is to get around the issue of most people not wanting to think about it at all. A default answer of "don't want to think about it" yields default answers of "no donation".
And that to me is the right of the individual. The ethics of organ harvesting are not settled.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
ivorythumper
Mar 7 2010, 09:37 AM
I see a real problem with forcing a 16 year old getting their first license to make a choice. They can't even vote yet.
If anybody leaves it blank, it's a no.

Again, probably same outcome. More donors who explicitly chose to donate.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Quagmire
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Senior Carp
Mikhailoh
Mar 6 2010, 06:37 PM
The world you guys want is terrifying indeed. How long will it be before treatment is withdrawn in order to get reusable organs? After all.. they were going to die anyway. heck, someone might be saved if we go early.
:uparrow:

I am not a donor. I have absolutely no problem with my organs being used for good once I'm gone, in fact I kind of like the idea.

The reason I opt out is because I dont want to be lying in a hospital with a questionable prognosis, while someone who is richer or "more important" than me with a hard to match tissue type has his eye on one of my organs. That persons money and power could certainly influence what becomes of me.

Certainly its a long shot that I'd find myself in that situation, but I think its naive to think it couldnt happen. Perhaps a little paranoid on my part? Probably. But its my body and my organs, so I have every right to hold that paranoia about them.
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
I would think your chances of needing a transplant would be way higher than your chances of being killed by a shadowy rich guy pulling strings. Your decision violates the golden rule, unless you also refuse to accept donations from others on principle.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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