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Howard Zinn Dies
Topic Started: Jan 29 2010, 07:05 AM (888 Views)
kathyk
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Pisa-Carp

What a great thinker and man. I enjoyed him many times on NPR. I wish I could have heard him live. RIP Howard Zinn
Edited by kathyk, Jan 29 2010, 07:06 AM.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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lb1
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Fulla-Carp
I have listened to him also, I never heard him live either, but I will enjoy hearing him dead.

lb
My position is simple: you jumped to an unwarranted conclusion and slung mud on an issue where none was deserved. Quirt 03/08/09
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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
I read his "People's History" in high school. It was eye-opening, despite being biased and incomplete. Historical study should be unflinching.

I disagree with most of his views, but I did appreciate his historical perspective (as opposed to someone like Chomsky, who more often than not is purely talking out of his @ss).
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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kathyk
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Definitely a book to add to my ever growing pile.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Red Rice
Jan 29 2010, 07:52 AM
I read his "People's History" in high school. It was eye-opening, despite being biased and incomplete. Historical study should be unflinching.

I disagree with most of his views, but I did appreciate his historical perspective (as opposed to someone like Chomsky, who more often than not is purely talking out of his @ss).
+1 on all counts, RR.

I still have my copy of People's History. I flip through it from time to time.

The thing is, yeah, he's horribly radical. His work always had that slant. Doesn't make his facts wrong though and we need people like that, all across the political spectrum.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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lb1
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Aqua Letifer
Jan 29 2010, 08:18 AM


The thing is, yeah, he's horribly radical. His work always had that slant. Doesn't make his facts wrong though and we need people like that, all across the political spectrum.
There is nothing wrong with having a radical opinion, but when you use your position as an educator to incite students to participate in social unrest and rioting, you are a social terrorist. It doesn't make any difference if your position is anti abortion, civil rights, or anti war, the world becomes a better place once you are dead.

lb
My position is simple: you jumped to an unwarranted conclusion and slung mud on an issue where none was deserved. Quirt 03/08/09
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Aqua Letifer
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lb1
Jan 29 2010, 08:33 AM
Aqua Letifer
Jan 29 2010, 08:18 AM


The thing is, yeah, he's horribly radical. His work always had that slant. Doesn't make his facts wrong though and we need people like that, all across the political spectrum.
There is nothing wrong with having a radical opinion, but when you use your position as an educator to incite students to participate in social unrest and rioting, you are a social terrorist. It doesn't make any difference if your position is anti abortion, civil rights, or anti war, the world becomes a better place once you are dead.

lb
I don't think I've heard that from him. I've heard him talk about the importance of organizing*, but I've always heard him emphasize that rallies, etc. need to be peaceful, that peaceful protest is one of the greatest freedoms we have, etc. I'm not a Howard Zinn apologist, that's seriously all I've heard. I've never heard of him advocating violence.

*About organization, I fully support that part of his message. Nobody cares about political topics and government anymore. People would rather watch Lost than hear the State of the Union and the thing is, I don't place all the blame on the public for that. Regardless, I think it's pretty ridiculous that the most "involved" a lot of people get in political matters is getting into political arguments with in-laws at Christmas dinner. I think the "Tea Party" rallies have been just stupid in terms of their message but I'm glad to hear of people actually getting out and voicing their opinion.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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lb1
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He got started at an early age and it carried out through his life until he had the opportunity to incite his students to take his place in the riots.

Quote:
 
At the age of 17, Zinn got an early taste of activism, when he was beaten by police at a Times Square political rally.

lb
My position is simple: you jumped to an unwarranted conclusion and slung mud on an issue where none was deserved. Quirt 03/08/09
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Aqua Letifer
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lb1
Jan 29 2010, 08:59 AM
He got started at an early age and it carried out through his life until he had the opportunity to incite his students to take his place in the riots.

Quote:
 
At the age of 17, Zinn got an early taste of activism, when he was beaten by police at a Times Square political rally.

lb
If you read Zinn's take on that incident, you'd get something very different.

It was a demonstration that he insists was peaceful. In fact, he said that it was a quiet rally; there was marching and holding signs but no chanting. He went with his friends who were either socialists or communists, I can't remember which.

He claims he doesn't even remember being attacked, he woke up in the gutter that night after being hit over the head. Later he heard that the police broke up the protest and only when the police arrive did things get ugly.

I suppose he could be lying about that, but I don't think so. I've read a couple of his articles and speeches. He wants students to be politically active but I've never heard him advocate violence. And if you're going to have a socialist rally in a busy part of NYC in 1939, however peaceful you intend, I can easily see some onlookers or law enforcement getting carried away.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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big al
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There's a great deal of truth in the old aphorism "History is written by the victors."

People like Howard Zinn are a useful counterweight to balance that effect.

Big Al
Location: Western PA

"jesu, der simcha fun der man's farlangen."
-bachophile
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lb1
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Aqua Letifer
Jan 29 2010, 09:44 AM
lb1
Jan 29 2010, 08:59 AM
He got started at an early age and it carried out through his life until he had the opportunity to incite his students to take his place in the riots.

Quote:
 
At the age of 17, Zinn got an early taste of activism, when he was beaten by police at a Times Square political rally.

lb
If you read Zinn's take on that incident, you'd get something very different.

It was a demonstration that he insists was peaceful. In fact, he said that it was a quiet rally; there was marching and holding signs but no chanting. He went with his friends who were either socialists or communists, I can't remember which.

He claims he doesn't even remember being attacked, he woke up in the gutter that night after being hit over the head. Later he heard that the police broke up the protest and only when the police arrive did things get ugly.

I suppose he could be lying about that, but I don't think so. I've read a couple of his articles and speeches. He wants students to be politically active but I've never heard him advocate violence. And if you're going to have a socialist rally in a busy part of NYC in 1939, however peaceful you intend, I can easily see some onlookers or law enforcement getting carried away.
They are always peaceful, and it is always the polices fault. No doubt this was his only run in with the law and he was never arrested huh. What was a 17 year old wet behind the ears kid doing at a political rally. Any person that was ever arrested for civil disobedience should never be allowed in or near a classroom.

lb
My position is simple: you jumped to an unwarranted conclusion and slung mud on an issue where none was deserved. Quirt 03/08/09
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big al
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lb1
Jan 29 2010, 11:57 AM
Any person that was ever arrested for civil disobedience believing they could exercise their rights under the 1st Amendment to the US Constitution should never be allowed in or near a classroom.

FIFY

You're way too authoritarian for my taste, lb.

Big Al
Location: Western PA

"jesu, der simcha fun der man's farlangen."
-bachophile
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Renauda
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lb1
Jan 29 2010, 11:57 AM
Any person that was ever arrested for civil disobedience should never be allowed in or near a classroom.

lb
What an assinine generalization.
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kenny
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lb, civil disobedience is always wrong?

Be careful, this is a trap.
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Kincaid
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I'm surprised I never heard of him or his book - which came out just as I was going to college. Maybe if I'd taken more than just Western Civ 101, 102 and 103. I would have enjoyed being a history prof.

I'd like to know he felt about WWII. His "never again" comment can make sense in multiple ways. I doubt he would have recommended only non-violent protest for Jews in Hitler's Europe. I wonder what he would have done?
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
kenny
Jan 29 2010, 12:11 PM
lb, civil disobedience is always wrong?

Be careful, this is a trap.
Yep, no teaching or classrooms for any of those founding fathers ya know.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
big al
Jan 29 2010, 11:15 AM
There's a great deal of truth in the old aphorism "History is written by the victors."

People like Howard Zinn are a useful counterweight to balance that effect.

Big Al
Given the politically correct crap that passes for history in most grade schools and high schools -- the sort of tendentious "history" that Zinn did -- he was hardly a counterweight to anything.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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lb1
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You liberal a**holes think it was wrong for the tobacco companies to target advertising towards teenagers, you also think that the military shouldn't recruit on campuses. Why, because the poor innocent little darlings are easily influenced. But you think it is fabulous to let these little pricks sit in classrooms and be taught by anarchist. You are all sick and it is no wonder this world is so fvcked up.

lb
My position is simple: you jumped to an unwarranted conclusion and slung mud on an issue where none was deserved. Quirt 03/08/09
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lb1
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big al
Jan 29 2010, 12:02 PM
lb1
Jan 29 2010, 11:57 AM
Any person that was ever arrested for civil disobedience believing they could exercise their rights under the 1st Amendment to the US Constitution should never be allowed in or near a classroom.

FIFY

You're way too authoritarian for my taste, lb.

Big Al
Don't pull that first amendment crap. Free speech and inciting riots are two different things.

lb
My position is simple: you jumped to an unwarranted conclusion and slung mud on an issue where none was deserved. Quirt 03/08/09
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
lb1
Jan 29 2010, 12:28 PM
You liberal a**holes think it was wrong for the tobacco companies to target advertising towards teenagers, you also think that the military shouldn't recruit on campuses. Why, because the poor innocent little darlings are easily influenced. But you think it is fabulous to let these little pricks sit in classrooms and be taught by anarchist. You are all sick and it is no wonder this world is so fvcked up.

lb
So long as *these little pricks* you rave on about are over 18 and in university or, as you American folks say, college, why not? They could be listening to worse.

And BTW, military recruitment on campuses across this nation is not an issue. If anything it is welcomed and encouraged.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
The man was an admitted Marxist, once a communist, and he hated everything America stands for. It comes as no surprise to me that someone as ideologically constipated as Kathy would find the man's views interesting.

Here's an article on Zinn and his ideas:

"Howard Zinn died Wednesday at the age of 87. He is best known for writing A People’s History of the United States (1980), a Marxist tract that describes America as a predatory and repressive capitalist state — sexist, racist, imperialist — that is run by a corporate ruling class for the benefit of the rich. A People’s History has sold more than a million copies, making it one of the best-selling history books of all time. It has long been one of most influential texts in college classrooms."

Cick here
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
I wish all of the Leftwing fruitcakes who sympathize with the "hate America" mentality that you deny but constantly reveal to be true - I wish every god damned one of you would just get the hell out of this country.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
Larry
Jan 29 2010, 10:30 PM
"Howard Zinn died Wednesday at the age of 87. He is best known for writing A People’s History of the United States (1980), a Marxist tract that describes America as a predatory and repressive capitalist state — sexist, racist, imperialist — that is run by a corporate ruling class for the benefit of the rich..."
But let's look at that statement... the plain truth is that, for much of its history, America was sexist, racist and imperialist. It tolerated slavery long after other nations abandoned it. Women were disenfranchised and treated as second-class citizens, and African-Americans were treated even worse. The Native Americans were subject to genocide. The Mexican-American and Spanish-American Wars were wars of empire.

As for the corporate ruling class running things for the benefit of the rich... one only has to look at the Wall Streeters and their slurpingly slavish toadies in Washington sticking it to the American taxpayer for proof of that.

You don't have to agree with everything Zinn says, or even with most of what he says (I certainly don't), but you shouldn't turn your eyes when he speaks the truth.

And he came by his anti-war stance honestly: he served as a bombardier during WWII, and was disturbed by the civilian deaths he was responsible for.
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
He was a Marxist. He was anticapitalist.

There is no place for either of those in this country.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Larry
Jan 29 2010, 11:26 PM
He was a Marxist. He was anticapitalist.

There is no place for either of those in this country.
That's not quite correct. Socialist would be a better label since there were some fundamentals of Marxism he never got behind.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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