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Happy Anniversary, Mr. President
Topic Started: Jan 22 2010, 09:31 AM (742 Views)
QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
QuantumIvory
Jan 31 2010, 02:11 PM
Quirt
 
You don't get to hold people forever, just because you'd rather. Not only is it wrong and inhumane to lock them up for life because you don't think you can try them, it also creates more terrorists.

It also creates more terrorists? Tell me you're not serious.

Completely serious.

In a culture where people are willing to martyr themselves, and do so regularly, locking people up permanently without any sort of trial or any evidence presented looks tyrannical. Don't give them more excuses to think that we are the bad guys.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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QuantumIvory
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Senior Carp
QuirtEvans
Jan 31 2010, 02:44 PM
QuantumIvory
Jan 31 2010, 02:11 PM
Quirt
 
You don't get to hold people forever, just because you'd rather. Not only is it wrong and inhumane to lock them up for life because you don't think you can try them, it also creates more terrorists.

It also creates more terrorists? Tell me you're not serious.

Completely serious.

In a culture where people are willing to martyr themselves, and do so regularly, locking people up permanently without any sort of trial or any evidence presented looks tyrannical. Don't give them more excuses to think that we are the bad guys.
The radical jihadists don't need a reason to think we're the bad guys. When they consider even moderate Muslims as the bad guys, keeping a few of the loony ones locked up will not make them hate us less. In fact, whenever we do release any detainees they probably laugh and view us as weak.
"I regard consciousness as fundamental. We cannot get behind consciousness." -Max Planck

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Copper
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Shortstop
QuantumIvory
Jan 31 2010, 04:03 PM

The radical jihadists don't need a reason to think we're the bad guys. When they consider even moderate Muslims as the bad guys, keeping a few of the loony ones locked up will not make them hate us less. In fact, whenever we do release any detainees they probably laugh and view us as weak.

Let's assume for the moment there are some "good" muslims.

Why would they want these kooks?

I think keeping the kooks locked up should make us some friends.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Copper
Jan 31 2010, 04:53 PM
QuantumIvory
Jan 31 2010, 04:03 PM

The radical jihadists don't need a reason to think we're the bad guys. When they consider even moderate Muslims as the bad guys, keeping a few of the loony ones locked up will not make them hate us less. In fact, whenever we do release any detainees they probably laugh and view us as weak.

Let's assume for the moment there are some "good" muslims.

Why would they want these kooks?

I think keeping the kooks locked up should make us some friends.
Have you ask good Muslims this question?
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CTPianotech
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Fulla-Carp
QuirtEvans
Jan 31 2010, 11:33 AM
If they are too dangerous to release, prove it. Write a law that creates a standard for indefinite imprisonment, and then stand up in court and prove that the standard has been met.

Could any such law address the 50 or so people the 'task force' is referring to??










(i'm thinking something about ex-post-facto )
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
CTPianotech
Feb 1 2010, 03:56 AM
QuirtEvans
Jan 31 2010, 11:33 AM
If they are too dangerous to release, prove it. Write a law that creates a standard for indefinite imprisonment, and then stand up in court and prove that the standard has been met.

Could any such law address the 50 or so people the 'task force' is referring to??










(i'm thinking something about ex-post-facto )
That's a good question. However, the rules for the military tribunals were written after they were taken into custody.

I think you'd solve the ex post facto problem by saying that the law isn't designed to punish their past behavior, it applies to future acts they might commit and the danger that they present.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Copper
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Shortstop
Axtremus
Jan 31 2010, 09:25 PM
Copper
Jan 31 2010, 04:53 PM
QuantumIvory
Jan 31 2010, 04:03 PM

The radical jihadists don't need a reason to think we're the bad guys. When they consider even moderate Muslims as the bad guys, keeping a few of the loony ones locked up will not make them hate us less. In fact, whenever we do release any detainees they probably laugh and view us as weak.

Let's assume for the moment there are some "good" muslims.

Why would they want these kooks?

I think keeping the kooks locked up should make us some friends.
Have you ask good Muslims this question?

Sure, all the TNCR good muslims read this.

If they wanted the terrorists to be their neighbors they would have spoken up by now.

They don't want them either.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
QuirtEvans
Feb 1 2010, 04:05 AM

I think you'd solve the ex post facto problem by saying that the law isn't designed to punish their past behavior, it applies to future acts they might commit and the danger that they present.
Which requires prophecy or mind reading or fortune telling. You cannot write a valid law punishing people for what they might do in the future.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
Yeah... Punishing people for crimes they might commit in the future is a little too, "Minority Report"-ish, for me... :shrug:
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Well, there is your precedent although it hasn't happened yet.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
JBryan
Feb 1 2010, 11:50 AM
Well, there is your precedent although it hasn't happened yet.
There are certainly laws regarding conspiracy to commit crimes, but those are actual crimes, not some excuse to get around the opinion that someone is too dangerous to let go but we supposedly can't just hold people indefinitely so we will write a law allowing us to hold them indefinitely because the law says we can.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
That was meant to be tongue in cheek.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Yeah, I kind of realized that after I got into it, but thought, "what the hell..." :lol2:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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