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Get ready to trade your Prius; for a Toyota hydrogen fuel-cell car
Topic Started: Jan 11 2010, 06:49 PM (223 Views)
John Galt
Fulla-Carp
http://www.nytimes.com/external/venturebeat/2010/01/11/11venturebeat-toyota-expands-hydrogen-car-program-aims-to-31681.html
Let us begin anew, remembering on both sides that civility is not a sign of weakness.
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
There are far cheaper ways to power automobiles with electricity without the intermediate step of using it to isolate hydrogen.


In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
jon-nyc
Jan 12 2010, 02:20 AM
There are far cheaper ways to power automobiles with electricity without the intermediate step of using it to isolate hydrogen.


Isn't the point that the recharging is faster/more convenient? And that the storage mechanism works better than batteries?
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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jon-nyc
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Yeah, but the lack of hydrogen stations around the country doesn't speak much for its convenience.

This idea is such a non-starter, I'm pretty surprised they're pursuing it at all. They must be doing it solely for publicity, or to chase subsidies.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Two words: Remember the Hindenburg.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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QuirtEvans
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jon-nyc
Jan 12 2010, 04:10 AM
Yeah, but the lack of hydrogen stations around the country doesn't speak much for its convenience.

That's was true about gasoline when the first gasoline-powered cars were introduced, too.

And cellphones, and televisions, and trains, and airplanes, and ...
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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QuirtEvans
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John D'Oh
Jan 12 2010, 05:00 AM
Two words: Remember the Hindenburg.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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jon-nyc
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QuirtEvans
Jan 12 2010, 05:08 AM
That's was true about gasoline when the first gasoline-powered cars were introduced, too.
Yeah, but there was already a well established distribution system for kerosene. The same companies simply started shipping gasoline using the same or similar equipment. (e.g. Rockefeller's Standard Oil)


Anyway, I'll refer back to my argument about cost. Between that and the chicken/egg problem hydrogen has no chance vs. electric (battery).
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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jon-nyc
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jon-nyc
Jan 12 2010, 05:24 AM
Yeah, but there was already a well established distribution system for kerosene. The same companies simply started shipping gasoline using the same or similar equipment. (e.g. Rockefeller's Standard Oil)
Related trivia point, one that's pretty remarkable.

Rockefeller became the world's first billionaire before the mass production of the automobile. He made his first billion mostly on kerosene, not gasoline.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
QuirtEvans
Jan 12 2010, 05:08 AM
jon-nyc
Jan 12 2010, 04:10 AM
Yeah, but the lack of hydrogen stations around the country doesn't speak much for its convenience.

That's was true about gasoline when the first gasoline-powered cars were introduced, too.

And cellphones, and televisions, and trains, and airplanes, and ...
...personal helicopters.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Red Rice
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jon-nyc
Jan 12 2010, 04:10 AM
This idea is such a non-starter, I'm pretty surprised they're pursuing it at all. They must be doing it solely for publicity, or to chase subsidies.
Interesting. I wonder about it too. I keep hearing that it's a dead end, and then another car company announces it's going to continue development.

From what many reviewers have written however, hydrogen-powered cars have significantly better performance than hybrid cars. Maybe this is a consideration.
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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QuirtEvans
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Don't let Jon's negativity get you down. He probably thinks there's no market for an Apple tablet. :sombrero:
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Or personal helicopters.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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1hp
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Fulla-Carp

One of the big problems with hydrogen powered cars has been the storage of the hydrogen. To make this work, the storage tank would have to withstand pressures of somewhere between 5,000 and 10,000 psi (for gaseous hydrogen), yet be light enough for use in a vehicle. Last I read they were playing with carbon fiber tanks - they look to be suitable, except for the cost of carbon fiber. There are demo units running around out there - the question is whether they are manufacturable in volume for a decent cost.
There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those that understand binary and................
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
And, has anyone mentioned how to get hydrogen to market? It takes a lot of energy to end up with a hydrogen molecule and one of the easiest ways to get it is to crack a fossil fuel anyway - which, while cleaner, is much less efficient then just putting the fossil fuel into the tank.

My prediction: We'll be mining unobtanium on Pandora before we ever switch transportation fuel over to hydrogen.

My 2nd prediction: The real future is in genetically altered bacteria that will eat waste and produce clean(er) fuel.
Edited by Kincaid, Jan 12 2010, 08:53 AM.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Whatever fuel we use for vehicles in the future, it must be portable. Biodiesel and hydrogen seem like the only options.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
Jolly
Jan 12 2010, 10:37 AM
Whatever fuel we use for vehicles in the future, it must be portable. Biodiesel and hydrogen seem like the only options.
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Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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