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The Passionate Followers of the Religion of Peace; strike again
Topic Started: Jan 10 2010, 07:38 AM (985 Views)
ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Copper
Jan 10 2010, 02:56 PM
ivorythumper
Jan 10 2010, 02:26 PM
kathyk
Jan 10 2010, 12:28 PM
I see it as just a matter of timing. Christianity on the whole has finally outgrown its age of institutional intolerance (e.g. the inquisition). As you well know, Christianity went through some serious reformations. I tend to think that Islam is just a bit behind the curve.
I doubt you really know anything about "the Inquisition" other than the rhetorical value of the phrase and some Monty Pythonesque view of history.

You are thinking of the "Inquisition" in the historical sense.

Here in the forums it is used in the hysterical sense.

It is a justification to say any ridiculous thing you want.

Get with it.
Sorry. Another of those TNCR memes I missed.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Piano*Dad
Jan 10 2010, 02:57 PM
Renauda
Jan 10 2010, 01:02 PM
Piano*Dad
Jan 10 2010, 12:25 PM

I'm afraid I don't see the facile comparison between Christianity, even of the fundamentalist stripe, and Islam as it is currently practiced by a large slice of the muslim population.
Karen Armstrong doesn't think its facile. Her book, The Battle for God exmaines that very issue and draws some very chilling parallels. Even her most recent book, The Case for God discusses the issue.

I'm aware of her writing, though I haven't had the opportunity (time) to read it. Maybe I will. It sounds interesting.

A snippet of her claim, from the review you cite:

“Fundamentalism in all three faiths has no time for democracy, pluralism, religious toleration, peacekeeping, free speech, or the separation of church and state.”

I accept that there is a nugget of interest in there. The fundamentalist impulse may indeed be less tolerant than the secularist viewpoint or than the moderate deism of many of the founders. But it is not at all clear to me the real people who are fundamentalist in their outlook are monolithically the same. That's a claim that all the other aspects of culture play little to no role in shaping people, and I find that hard to accept. Many fundamentalists I have known in the US were perfectly willing to draw a line between their religious beliefs and the coercive powers of the state. They were strongly influenced, in other words, by the rest of the US political culture. I do not find that kind of practical tolerance (not religious tolerance) at work in the Islamic revival that I'm seeing today.
This fundamentalist impulse has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with human nature. The same impulse is found among environmentalist, evangelical atheists, materialists, gay rights advocates, anti and pro abortionists, socialists and fascists and liberals and conservatives. It is silly to claim it is somehow derivative of a monotheistic world view.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
I and, I would imagine Piano*Dad, were well aware of that, but all the same, thank you for sharing the obvious.
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Piano*Dad
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Bull-Carp
Renauda
Jan 10 2010, 04:58 PM
I and, I would imagine Piano*Dad, were well aware of that, but all the same, thank you for sharing the obvious.
:D
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
BTW, it's strategically untenable and tactically stupid to "fight" Islam as one entity.

There are, like, a billion Muslims. None of us (ok, may be except Larry) want to eliminate a billion people.

It may be true these days that "most" terrorists are professed Muslims, but it's undoubtedly true that "most" professed Muslims are not terrorists.

There are sects and tribal fault lines among professed Muslims. Sunni vs. Shiite vs. Wahabi and what not ... and, yes, there are modern, peaceful, moderate Muslims. I would even claim that the majority of professed Muslims are "moderates" rather than "extremists" or "fundamentalists."

Purely from a utilitarian stand point, slamming Islam as a whole would simply encourage the unity of all those different sects and tribes, turn off the moderates, and unite a billion of them against you. Punishing a whole group for the sin of a few is also ethically problematic.

The smart and moral strategy would be to separate out the extremist elements and fight those (not just in action, but also in words and in rhetoric); befriend and empower the moderates to fight on your side. (That's why it's right and smart for Bush 43 to acknowledge Islam as a religion of peace right after 9/11, that's why it's right and smart for Obama 44 to restate the same thing after he became President.)
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
And that is exactly what we have been doing in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

But I would dispute that we need only be concerned with those who actively commit violence. Islam still includes a barbaric, aggressive and misogynistic attitude abhorrent to our way of life. Perhaps the greater threat to Western civilization is burgeoning Muslim population of Europe and the continual appeasement of their unreasonable demands.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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George K
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Finally
Mikhailoh
Jan 10 2010, 05:41 PM
Islam still includes a barbaric, aggressive and misogynistic attitude abhorrent to our way of life.
I hate it when you hold back. :lol2:
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- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

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- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
I am sure there are many Muslims - and I have met many fine folks of that faith - who do not ahdere to those tenets. But I think there are a whole lot who do.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
More attacks: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8450713.stm

Local leadership reactions: http://www.mysinchew.com/node/33701
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George K
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Finally
Mikhailoh
Jan 10 2010, 05:51 PM
I am sure there are many Muslims - and I have met many fine folks of that faith - who do not ahdere to those tenets.
If I had a nickel for every surgeon named "Mohammed" I work with, I could retire. To a man, they're all wonderful, kind, and friendly.

But...we don't discuss religion or politics.

I wonder how deeply the Mohammeden anger is seated in many of these people.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
I still find their condemnations of evil acts unconvincing, and posessing an undercurrent of refusal to condemn the acts of other Muslims.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Copper
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Shortstop
Mikhailoh
Jan 10 2010, 06:02 PM
I still find their condemnations of evil acts unconvincing, and posessing an undercurrent of refusal to condemn the acts of other Muslims.

Kind of the way George Wallace used to condemn the KKK.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
George K
Jan 10 2010, 05:55 PM
Mikhailoh
Jan 10 2010, 05:51 PM
I am sure there are many Muslims - and I have met many fine folks of that faith - who do not ahdere to those tenets.
If I had a nickel for every surgeon named "Mohammed" I work with, I could retire. To a man, they're all wonderful, kind, and friendly.

But...we don't discuss religion or politics.

I wonder how deeply the Mohammeden anger is seated in many of these people.
The fact that they cut people open for a living probably gives you some indication.

I would have been a top surgeon, incidentally, except I was let down by the fact that I'm just too nice. Also, I didn't want to have to work weekends.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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lb1
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Fulla-Carp
Mikhailoh
Jan 10 2010, 06:02 PM
I still find their condemnations of evil acts unconvincing, and possessing an undercurrent of refusal to condemn the acts of other Muslims.
+1, in a nutshell.

lb
My position is simple: you jumped to an unwarranted conclusion and slung mud on an issue where none was deserved. Quirt 03/08/09
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Kind of like Ronald Reagan's Eleventh Commandment.

Kind of like how otherwise reasonable conservatives around here won't acknowledge what a whack job Sarah Palin is.

:leaving:
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Piano*Dad
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Bull-Carp
Quote:
 
The fact that they cut people open for a living probably gives you some indication.

I would have been a top surgeon, incidentally, except I was let down by the fact that I'm just too nice. Also, I didn't want to have to work weekends.


Thanks John, I needed my morning chuckle!

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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
kathyk
Jan 10 2010, 12:28 PM
As you well know, Christianity went through some serious reformations. I tend to think that Islam is just a bit behind the curve.
Western Christianity had something to reform- the Church. Islam has nothing resembling the Church to reform.
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big al
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Bull-Carp
Renauda
Jan 10 2010, 01:02 PM
Piano*Dad
Jan 10 2010, 12:25 PM

I'm afraid I don't see the facile comparison between Christianity, even of the fundamentalist stripe, and Islam as it is currently practiced by a large slice of the muslim population.
Karen Armstrong doesn't think it's facile. Her book, The Battle for God examines that very issue and draws some very chilling parallels. Even her most recent book, The Case for God discusses the issue.

I purchased The Battle for God about a year ago, I think at the recommendation of someone here at TNCR, and read it recently. It contributed to my understanding of some of the confluences and conflicts between religions and societies both earlier and and in current times. I wanted to thank whoever initially recommended it to me and extend that recommendation to others.

Big Al
Location: Western PA

"jesu, der simcha fun der man's farlangen."
-bachophile
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
http://s10.zetaboards.com/The_New_Coffee_Room/single/?p=8158114&t=7083700

You're welcome.
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