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The Passionate Followers of the Religion of Peace; strike again
Topic Started: Jan 10 2010, 07:38 AM (987 Views)
kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
Humans have a tendency to find groups they can call bad so they get to be in the good group.

We do it to "them".
"They" do it to us.

Resist this natural human tendency.
All you need is Love. (without the corporate sponsorship)
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Piano*Dad
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Bull-Carp
You may feel free to open your arms wide as someone sticks the knife between your ribs because of who you are. Others choose another path.
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George K
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Finally
kathyk
Jan 10 2010, 12:28 PM
I see it as just a matter of timing. Christianity on the whole has finally outgrown its age of institutional intolerance (e.g. the inquisition). As you well know, Christianity went through some serious reformations.
Well, it's time for Islam to grow up. Christianity went through its 'reformations' as the world grew and embraced science and the liberal arts. It grew along with the world. Islam has not kept pace with the rest of the world, and is firmly rooted in the 8th century (except for the explosives part, that is).
Quote:
 
I tend to think that Islam is just a bit behind the curve.
Yeah, about a millennium's worth.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
kenny
Jan 10 2010, 12:33 PM
All you need is Love.
All you need is economic opportunity and perhaps more importantly sexual opportunity. The terrorists tend to be the angry frustrated young men. Bin Laden has a barrelful of wives while his tools have none. We need to fix the mysogeny in the middle east first and foremost IMO.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
Piano*Dad
Jan 10 2010, 12:42 PM
You may feel free to open your arms wide as someone sticks the knife between your ribs because of who you are. Others choose another path.
Fear fear fear.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
George K
Jan 10 2010, 12:43 PM
Quote:
 
I tend to think that Islam is just a bit behind the curve.
Yeah, about a millennium's worth.
Exactly what I was thinking.

As far as Larry's KKK point goes, he's undoubtedly right. If there was a Thuggee religious cult in America today, we wouldn't say that it's just the individuals. It's the religion itself.

The question is where the lines are drawn.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
kathyk
Jan 10 2010, 12:17 PM
Fundamentalist Christians make the same claims.

The irony here is that Christianity and Islam both share the same Abrahamic roots based on the belief in the same monotheistic God. Isn't "Allah" just the generic Arabic word for God?
Your stupidity knows no bounds, does it..


"Fundamentalist" Christians do not make the same claims. Jesus said to tell the "good news", and if people rejected it, to shake the dust off your shoes and move on.

Islam claims to be of Abrahamic roots, and claims to believe in the same God. They then construct a religion that denies every single thing taught or believed by the real Abrahamic religions. According to islam, Jesus was just a messenger, he did not die on the cross, he is not God manifest as man. The word "allah" comes from the moon god "Al-lah". In Mohammed's day, arabs worshiped a pantheon of idols, around 360 different ones. The head idol was a big black rock they believed came from the moon. They called this rock "Al-lah". They faced Mecca to pray to their idols. Mohammed simply made his god, "al-lah" the Moon God, the head idol of the arabs. So the word "allah" is a generic word for god, yes. But not the God of Abraham.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
Piano*Dad
Jan 10 2010, 12:25 PM

I'm afraid I don't see the facile comparison between Christianity, even of the fundamentalist stripe, and Islam as it is currently practiced by a large slice of the muslim population.
Karen Armstrong doesn't think it's facile. Her book, The Battle for God examines that very issue and draws some very chilling parallels. Even her most recent book, The Case for God discusses the issue.

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John Galt
Fulla-Carp
Renauda
Jan 10 2010, 01:02 PM
Piano*Dad
Jan 10 2010, 12:25 PM

I'm afraid I don't see the facile comparison between Christianity, even of the fundamentalist stripe, and Islam as it is currently practiced by a large slice of the muslim population.
Karen Armstrong doesn't think its facile. Her book, The Battle for God exmaines that very issue and draws some very chilling parallels. Even her most recent book, The Case for God discusses the issue.
Two good recommendations, Renauda.
Let us begin anew, remembering on both sides that civility is not a sign of weakness.
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
Larry
 
Islam claims to be of Abrahamic roots, and claims to believe in the same God. They then construct a religion that denies every single thing taught or believed by the real Abrahamic religions. According to islam, Jesus was just a messenger, he did not die on the cross, he is not God manifest as man. The word "allah" comes from the moon god "Al-lah". In Mohammed's day, arabs worshiped a pantheon of idols, around 360 different ones. The head idol was a big black rock they believed came from the moon. They called this rock "Al-lah". They faced Mecca to pray to their idols. Mohammed simply made his god, "al-lah" the Moon God, the head idol of the arabs. So the word "allah" is a generic word for god, yes. But not the God of Abraham.


Yes, the Allah of Islam is the God of Abraham. As for the rest of what you wrote, the Islamic view of Jesus is much more complicated than you might lead us to believe- Jesus and Islam. Besides, the notion that Jesus was not God made man is not exclusive to Islam. Judaism as well doesn't buy into it either.
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Scoutie
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Junior Carp
Piano*Dad
Jan 10 2010, 10:08 AM
Please, no more discussions of Kenny's inconsistency. :lol2:

Look, if an entire group shares a basic outlook, and that outlook contains deeply problematic strictures for how to deal with 'others' then it's fair game to examine that outlook critically. We've been doing this with Christianity for centuries. It's old hat now. Try doing it with Islam and you will experience the full force of a fatwa that some young male puffed up on Allah may execute .... literally. There are some deeply troubling (to me, at least) aspects of that faith that DO motivate millions of people to behave in very violent and superior ways. Islam's bloody borders are no myth to me, or to millions of Christians who have to live with the daily threat of Jihad as the backdrop of their lives.
Millions of people behave in very violent and superior ways?
Wow! I must have missed that news item.
Seems to me it's a relatively small number of radicals who have hijacked a religious faith that has an ideology not all that dissimilar to the Christian faith (love and respect each other, etc.).
And we in the west, being unfamiliar with Islam, have reacted to the horrible actions of these terrorists with a blind fear. Bush et. al. really tried, right after 9-11 to remind Americans that this was the work of radicals and we needed to see the larger picture vis a vis the religion.
What happened to that message? What happened to our critical thinking about this?
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Copper
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Shortstop
kathyk
Jan 10 2010, 12:28 PM

I tend to think that Islam is just a bit behind the curve.

Maybe they are ahead of it.

If things keep on like this we will either have to kill or be killed.

Maybe they have already figured that out.

The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Judaism doesn't deny that Jesus was crucified, they just deny that he was the Son of God. I'm very aware of the islamic view of Jesus, as I participate in a forum of them. Islam has to redefine who Jesus was in order to justify Mohammed. In Islam, Jesus is just another prophet, he was not crucified, he did not die on the cross. He was not resurrected. His purpose was to tell of the coming of Mohammed. Then, a religion is constructed that redefines everything taught by both Judaism and Christianity. The only tie islam has to the God of Abraham is to pull bits and pieces from each of the two abrahamic religions to lend credibility to it, and then weave it around their new religion.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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George K
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Finally
Renauda
Jan 10 2010, 01:26 PM
Besides, the notion that Jesus was not God made man is not exclusive to Islam.
Or to many early Christianities.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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kathyk
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Pisa-Carp
Talk about ignorant. It looks like Larry is getting his info straight from fringe websites. http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm http://churchofchristrockford.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=129&Itemid=27

Larry, the fact that Judaism, Christianity and Islam all share the same Abrahamic roots is Religion 101 - something you apparently skipped in your studies.

Islam is no more paganistic than Christianity. Of course, many Christian traditions are based on pagan rituals, e.g. it's no coincidence that Christmas coincides with the winter solstice. Solstice was a huge pagan time of celebration which was co-opted by the early Christians as a way of easing Pagans into the practice of Christianity.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
Posted Image I predict Larry will say something unpleasant to Kathy now.
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
Larry
 
Judaism doesn't deny that Jesus was crucified, they just deny that he was the Son of God. I'm very aware of the islamic view of Jesus, as I participate in a forum of them. Islam has to redefine who Jesus was in order to justify Mohammed. In Islam, Jesus is just another prophet, he was not crucified, he did not die on the cross. He was not resurrected. His purpose was to tell of the coming of Mohammed. Then, a religion is constructed that redefines everything taught by both Judaism and Christianity. The only tie islam has to the God of Abraham is to pull bits and pieces from each of the two abrahamic religions to lend credibility to it, and then weave it around their new religion.


I don't think it really matters what Islam does with the monotheistic traditions it inherited and adopted from both Judaism and Christianity. Judaism borrowed from the Zoroasterians and Christianity cherry picked Judaism to make it palatable to Hellenistic Gentiles. Islam is simply just another aspect of that same monotheistic tradition that is associated with the ancient Israelites.
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
George K
Jan 10 2010, 01:37 PM
Renauda
Jan 10 2010, 01:26 PM
Besides, the notion that Jesus was not God made man is not exclusive to Islam.
Or to many early Christianities.
Good point and as you are probably well aware, Unitarians continue to dispute the divinity of Christ.
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Piano*Dad
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Bull-Carp
Quote:
 
Wow! I must have missed that news item.


I guess you did. Front page of the NYT just the other day. :whome:

Look, you may choose to believe that a few religious wingnuts have 'hijacked' a faith. I don't. I think that a religious revival has begun in Islam. It is one that is tapping the core writings of the prophet and the Hadiths and weaving them into a modern political fairy tale of oppression. The result is an outburst of easily justified violence. The worst of modern identity politics and 'chip on the shoulder' grievance meets the worst of an aggressive religious tradition.

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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
kathyk
Jan 10 2010, 12:28 PM
I see it as just a matter of timing. Christianity on the whole has finally outgrown its age of institutional intolerance (e.g. the inquisition). As you well know, Christianity went through some serious reformations. I tend to think that Islam is just a bit behind the curve.
I doubt you really know anything about "the Inquisition" other than the rhetorical value of the phrase and some Monty Pythonesque view of history.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Copper
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Shortstop
ivorythumper
Jan 10 2010, 02:26 PM
kathyk
Jan 10 2010, 12:28 PM
I see it as just a matter of timing. Christianity on the whole has finally outgrown its age of institutional intolerance (e.g. the inquisition). As you well know, Christianity went through some serious reformations. I tend to think that Islam is just a bit behind the curve.
I doubt you really know anything about "the Inquisition" other than the rhetorical value of the phrase and some Monty Pythonesque view of history.

You are thinking of the "Inquisition" in the historical sense.

Here in the forums it is used in the hysterical sense.

It is a justification to say any ridiculous thing you want.

Get with it.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Piano*Dad
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Bull-Carp
Renauda
Jan 10 2010, 01:02 PM
Piano*Dad
Jan 10 2010, 12:25 PM

I'm afraid I don't see the facile comparison between Christianity, even of the fundamentalist stripe, and Islam as it is currently practiced by a large slice of the muslim population.
Karen Armstrong doesn't think its facile. Her book, The Battle for God exmaines that very issue and draws some very chilling parallels. Even her most recent book, The Case for God discusses the issue.

I'm aware of her writing, though I haven't had the opportunity (time) to read it. Maybe I will. It sounds interesting.

A snippet of her claim, from the review you cite:

“Fundamentalism in all three faiths has no time for democracy, pluralism, religious toleration, peacekeeping, free speech, or the separation of church and state.”

I accept that there is a nugget of interest in there. The fundamentalist impulse may indeed be less tolerant than the secularist viewpoint or than the moderate deism of many of the founders. But it is not at all clear to me the real people who are fundamentalist in their outlook are monolithically the same. That's a claim that all the other aspects of culture play little to no role in shaping people, and I find that hard to accept. Many fundamentalists I have known in the US were perfectly willing to draw a line between their religious beliefs and the coercive powers of the state. They were strongly influenced, in other words, by the rest of the US political culture. I do not find that kind of practical tolerance (not religious tolerance) at work in the Islamic revival that I'm seeing today.
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Ayatollah Khamenei
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Junior Carp
Posted Image

Why do you not understand?
Edited by Ayatollah Khamenei, Jan 10 2010, 03:34 PM.
Allah'u Akhbar!
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Oh, I do, I do. :lol:
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
pwned
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