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Hey Jeff and Jon : Wondering if you still think Obama really wrote "Dreams"?
Topic Started: Jan 1 2010, 05:09 PM (838 Views)
ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
jon-nyc
Jan 2 2010, 07:30 AM
Thanks to Larry and lb for providing yet more commentary on the intellectual state of American conservatism, however unintended.
That from the guy who accused several conservatives here of sucking each other's dicks?
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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jon-nyc
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ivorythumper
Jan 2 2010, 09:55 AM
How do you explain the parallel characters named Malik, Freddy, Tim, Coretta, and Marcus???? (for just one thing).

How are they parallel? Most of those names are pretty common in the right ethnic context.

In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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ivorythumper
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jon-nyc
Jan 2 2010, 10:33 AM
ivorythumper
Jan 2 2010, 09:55 AM
How do you explain the parallel characters named Malik, Freddy, Tim, Coretta, and Marcus???? (for just one thing).

How are they parallel? Most of those names are pretty common in the right ethnic context.

Uh yeah. And both authors just happened to use them. I have a nice bridge right in your neighborhood for sale. ;)
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jon-nyc
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Again, how are the characters parallel?
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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ivorythumper
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jon-nyc
Jan 2 2010, 10:45 AM
Again, how are the characters parallel?
You mean like different boys in each of the respective books riding water buffaloes and prodding them with bamboo sticks? You take that to be a coincidence???
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jon-nyc
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Quote:
 
You mean...


*I* don't mean anything. You're the one claiming those are parallel characters. Which of those characters you mentioned were riding water buffaloes? And how are the other characters parallel?
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jon-nyc
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Quick Amzn search of water buffalo in both books, the boy in the Obama book is unnamed, and I can't find reference to a boy riding a water buffalo in Ayres.

Ivorythumper?
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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ivorythumper
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jon-nyc
Jan 2 2010, 11:45 AM
Quote:
 
You mean...


*I* don't mean anything. You're the one claiming those are parallel characters. Which of those characters you mentioned were riding water buffaloes? And how are the other characters parallel?
Now you are just nitpicking.

You don't see a parallelism between two characters riding water buffaloes and prodding them with bamboo sticks? You can explain that away like using the exact same names as part of the same ethnic context?
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jon-nyc
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Its not nitpicking to ask you to back up your claim, which you have failed to do. If you can't back it up, take the honorable way out and simply admit it.

Or you could quit evading the question and try answering it.


Your call.
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jon-nyc
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Why don't we start at the beginning? Tell me about the two Maliks, and how their characters parallel each other.
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ivorythumper
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jon-nyc
Jan 2 2010, 11:53 AM
Quick Amzn search of water buffalo in both books, the boy in the Obama book is unnamed, and I can't find reference to a boy riding a water buffalo in Ayres.

Ivorythumper?
Fugitive Days, p 55
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
John D'Oh
Jan 2 2010, 09:12 AM
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Indeed John, it is entertaining to watch the resident partisan republocrats defecate wretch and spew on each other over the unsubstantiated claims of a hack writer and gossip columnist [Andersen].
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ivorythumper
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jon-nyc
Jan 2 2010, 11:55 AM
Why don't we start at the beginning? Tell me about the two Maliks, and how their characters parallel each other.
You are nitpicking again.
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ivorythumper
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jon-nyc
Jan 2 2010, 11:54 AM
Its not nitpicking to ask you to back up your claim, which you have failed to do. If you can't back it up, take the honorable way out and simply admit it.

Or you could quit evading the question and try answering it.


Your call.
What on earth are you talking about? I am merely showing the research of someone else. It's not MY claim.

I showed you the parallel to the water buffalo. Now answer my question about how you explain that.
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jon-nyc
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They are very common livestock in southeast Asia.


But neither boy is named. You claimed, or at least repeated the claim, that there were a number of parallel characters in the two books. You even went on to list them by name. When I asked you to explain the parallels, all you can give me is that both books mention boys riding water buffaloes in Southeast Asia. THat clearly isn't an answer.


I'll ask again. Can you explain how those characters parallel each other? If you can't, just say so.
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ivorythumper
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Boys riding water buffaloes and prodding them with bamboo sticks are also probably very common. But what other black American political figures in the US also write about them?

It should be obvious from my earlier post that the names being the same are the parallels. But if you can't even get that point, I can understand why you can't see other obvious things, and you make simple mistakes like claiming these are my arguments when I am just showing someone else's arguments.

Here is a more complete accounting of Cashill's research. I am fairly certain it won't move you to even question whether or not Ayers did materially contribute to the book, but it's all I can do.
Edited by ivorythumper, Jan 2 2010, 01:01 PM.
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
how was sucking the water buffalo's dick?

:hide:
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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jon-nyc
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ivorythumper
Jan 2 2010, 12:59 PM
Boys riding water buffaloes and prodding them with bamboo sticks are also probably very common. But what other black American political figures in the US also write about them?
Every one that I know of that grew up in Indonesia.


They're so common there, if you look at the Wiki entry for Indonesia, you'll notice a picture of water buffalo plowing a field under the section labeled 'economy'.
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jon-nyc
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ivorythumper
Jan 2 2010, 12:59 PM
It should be obvious from my earlier post that the names being the same are the parallels.
It only became obvious when you kept evading the question, then accused me of nitpicking for pressing the issue.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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ivorythumper
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jon-nyc
Jan 2 2010, 01:06 PM
ivorythumper
Jan 2 2010, 12:59 PM
It should be obvious from my earlier post that the names being the same are the parallels.
It only became obvious when you kept evading the question, then accused me of nitpicking for pressing the issue.
It is probably more accurate to say that it became obvious when I first mentioned it but you kept pressing the issue as a nitpick, and so I had to explicate it since you accused me of being evasive about what is really a meaningless question.
Edited by ivorythumper, Jan 2 2010, 01:20 PM.
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ivorythumper
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jon-nyc
Jan 2 2010, 01:05 PM
ivorythumper
Jan 2 2010, 12:59 PM
Boys riding water buffaloes and prodding them with bamboo sticks are also probably very common. But what other black American political figures in the US also write about them?
Every one that I know of that grew up in Indonesia.


They're so common there, if you look at the Wiki entry for Indonesia, you'll notice a picture of water buffalo plowing a field under the section labeled 'economy'.
I don't see boys riding them while prodding them with bamboo sticks.

I guess Obama just observed and decided to write about the exact same thing that Ayers recounted the memory of seeing a photograph of in a book on Vietnam?

What a fascinating coincidence.
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jon-nyc
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ivorythumper
Jan 2 2010, 01:19 PM
It is probably more accurate to say that it became obvious when I first mentioned it ...
Certainly not, since 'parallel characters' has meaning, distinct from 'similarly named characters'. The later shouldn't surprise that much given that memoirs often list dozens if not hundreds of names and the names you mentioned were not at all uncommon in their own ethnic context.


Had what you actually said been accurate, it may have been worth actually investigating the claims of that 'best selling celebrity author'.
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Copper
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Shortstop

I took a moment to review the link provided by IT

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/05/who_wrote_dreams_and_why_it_ma_1.html

This is the evidence you have been looking for Jon.

I have no idea if it is factual. If it is IT's claim has some substance.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
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What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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ivorythumper
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jon-nyc
Jan 2 2010, 01:48 PM
ivorythumper
Jan 2 2010, 01:19 PM
It is probably more accurate to say that it became obvious when I first mentioned it ...
Certainly not, since 'parallel characters' has meaning, distinct from 'similarly named characters'. The later shouldn't surprise that much given that memoirs often list dozens if not hundreds of names and the names you mentioned were not at all uncommon in their own ethnic context.

Had what you actually said been accurate, it may have been worth actually investigating the claims of that 'best selling celebrity author'.
Jon: I fully understand your need to nitpick so as to dismiss, but even Obama in Dreams acknowledges that a lot of the characters are composites and names are changed. See page XVII.

This of course raises the question of why Obama would pick the names from Ayers' repertoire.
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