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to profile or not to profile; that is the question...
Topic Started: Dec 30 2009, 08:29 PM (607 Views)
bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
full disclosure....

my daughter after finishing her army service in intelligence, is now working at the airport as a security agent, questioning passengers at check in. (part time job until she finsihes her school applications).

http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/30/aviation-security-and-the-israeli-model/

admittedly the comment about ben gurion being smaller then most large international hubs and amounts to a "busy regional airport" is well taken, but thats not the point....

israel profiles in the airport. absolutely and they dont hide it. is it racist or is it a necessary evil in todays world?

btw, daughter (who is a flaming leftist in politics) swears that mr hot underpants, would have been caught easily in ben gurion, without connection to profiling from his name, appearance or nigerian backround, just by technical devices, although she didnt and wont elaborate.
Edited by bachophile, Dec 30 2009, 08:32 PM.
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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blondie
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I suspect your dughter is highly educated Bach, quite able to use common sense, to induce-deduce, to think critically during her respectful communications with/ analyses of others.
In the U.S. it's more of a game of chance. I'm just grateful if I chance upon a security person who speaks English clearly, uses proper grammar, who maintains eye contact with me, who communicates respect and concern instead of shouting orders and demands.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
To not profile in these instances is simply political correctness gone mad.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Having travelled with someone of Iranian descent, and a Greek gentleman who looked suspiciously Arabic, my opinion is that they're already unofficially profiling.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Mikhailoh
Dec 31 2009, 05:50 AM
To not profile in these instances is simply political correctness gone mad.
Sadly, I have to agree.

I don't like profiling, as a rule. But, where safety is in question, you do what the math tells you to do.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
I would also disagree that they are doing any profiling, at least on any organized basis. I was going through security and ahead of me was a clearly Middle Eastern/Iraqi/Iranian type fellow with a laptop, acting very nervous and sketchy. He didn't seem to know how to navigate the security at all, and was going back and forth nervously. Then, when he got through after me, he left his laptop there. They called him back, gave it to him and he went on unquestioned.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Copper
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Shortstop

Profiling works for me.

I'm starting to look like a harmless old man. I can use that to some advantage, security types usually don't hassle me.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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RosemaryTwo
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HOLY CARP!!!
I think the scales are tipping (civil libertes vs. intrusions for safe air travel).

I am not excited about those body scanners. That would bother me, as a woman. I would be annoyed if I had to go through one to travel. But I am one of the few who have not posted any compromising videos of myself on the internet. I am modest.

A dog is more acceptable to me -- one who can walk in the vicinity and sniff explosives. Train more dogs, I say. Start with that Snarky dog.

The airline industry needs more information on its passengers. It's complicated.
"Perhaps the thing to do is just to let stupid run its course." Aqua
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
The full body scanners are not that intrusive - a person looks like a computer generated terrain map in one of those things. But I agree on the bomb-sniffing dogs comment. Bring 'em on.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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RosemaryTwo
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HOLY CARP!!!
I saw a special on CNN on the new generation body scanners.

They are less intrusive but they generated far from generic images. I would still get my feathers in a ruffle going through those.

I am not an old woman, but as a mother with children I could use more help getting everyone's shoes back on and laced than a full body scan. Just sayin'.
"Perhaps the thing to do is just to let stupid run its course." Aqua
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
I am against profiling people of middle eastern descent.

I think everyone who looks anything but mid western Caucasian from should be strip searched.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Free Rider
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Fulla-Carp
ivorythumper
Dec 31 2009, 09:13 AM
I am against profiling people of middle eastern descent.

I think everyone who looks anything but mid western Caucasian from should be strip searched.
:lol2:

Body cavities as well, I assume?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Free Rider
Dec 31 2009, 09:16 AM
ivorythumper
Dec 31 2009, 09:13 AM
I am against profiling people of middle eastern descent.

I think everyone who looks anything but mid western Caucasian from should be strip searched.
:lol2:

Body cavities as well, I assume?
Yeah, if you want to -- but unless you are willing to grow a beard, dye your hair black, and wear a thawb you'll have to pay extra for that. :lol2:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Free Rider
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Fulla-Carp
:lol2:
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Happy New Year, FR!
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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lb1
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Fulla-Carp
RosemaryTwo
Dec 31 2009, 08:05 AM


I am not excited about those body scanners. That would bother me, as a woman.

Then you aren't a guy with a 2" pecker, you can imagine the laughs that would get.

Quote:
 
A dog is more acceptable to me -- one who can walk in the vicinity and sniff explosives. Train more dogs, I say.


I was in international baggage claim at the Detroit airport awhile back and a security person walked by with a dog that sniffed my carry-on bag. When the dog started acting crazy she asked me if I had oranges in the bag. I replied that I did have a couple oranges in the bag but I ate them on the flight. She check my bag and told me that she could tell by the way the dog acted what was in the bag. Pretty smart dog and handler IMO.

lb
My position is simple: you jumped to an unwarranted conclusion and slung mud on an issue where none was deserved. Quirt 03/08/09
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lb1
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Fulla-Carp
ivorythumper
Dec 31 2009, 09:24 AM
Happy New Year, FR!
+1, enjoy the kids.

lb
My position is simple: you jumped to an unwarranted conclusion and slung mud on an issue where none was deserved. Quirt 03/08/09
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Free Rider
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Fulla-Carp
lb1
Dec 31 2009, 09:32 AM
ivorythumper
Dec 31 2009, 09:24 AM
Happy New Year, FR!
+1, enjoy the kids.

lb
Same to you guys!

lb I enjoyed the pics of your family, your oldest son looks like he could rip a tree in half.

IT I hope MS is healing up, you must be getting good at being her personal assistant! I hope you two ring in the new year together.
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lb1
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Fulla-Carp
Free Rider
Dec 31 2009, 09:37 AM

lb I enjoyed the pics of your family, your oldest son looks like he could rip a tree in half.

I don't know if he can rip a tree in half, but you ought to see him with a splitting maul.

Posted Image

Both sons enjoy picking me up and putting me over their Head.

lb
My position is simple: you jumped to an unwarranted conclusion and slung mud on an issue where none was deserved. Quirt 03/08/09
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Free Rider
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Fulla-Carp
Not to totally derail this thread, but that's great, lb! I just hope that they put you down gently.
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George K
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Finally
What Can Israel Teach the U.S. About Airport Security?

Quote:
 
Allison Kaplan Sommer On January 1, 2010

For eight years, travelers in the United States getting ready to head to the airport have had to think hard about their footwear. Knowing that we’ll be forced to remove our shoes to go through the X-ray machines, we make sure that they are an easily removed pair — and that socks have been recently washed to prevent embarrassment. In warm weather, the ordeal can’t be prevented by a clever choice to wear open sandals that expose the feet, as the TSA employees are under strict orders [1] to closely examine even the strappiest shoes.

But Israelis heading for Ben-Gurion Airport need not worry about donning even the most complicated pair of lace-up boots, as passengers are never asked to take off their shoes as part of the security process.

Airport security in Israel is not about what’s on your feet, or in your pockets, or — god forbid — in your underwear. It’s about what’s in your head.

While the Israeli security system is certainly not perfect, it is unlikely that Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab [2] could have successfully boarded a plane without being detained, questioned in-depth, and hopefully caught — even if his risk level hadn’t been so clearly documented [3].

The secret of Israeli airport security doesn’t just lie in super-sophisticated technology. Simply put, in Israel’s airport, there are simply far more opportunities to get caught. As Rafi Sela, an expert on security, outlined for the Toronto Star [4], the security system at Ben-Gurion Airport is multi-layered, comprised of the following elements:

– Roadside check: Drivers are stopped and asked who they are and where they came from. Even at that early stage, they are examined for behavioral giveaways that would mark them as suspicious.

– Armed guards at the entrance to the terminal and the entrance of the airport give you the visual once-over as you enter. They can pull you aside for a random check.

– Before you arrive at the main check-in counter, you stand in a security line where a young, clearly intelligent young man or woman examines your passport and ticket, looks straight into your eyes, and asks you about who you are, where you came from, where you are heading, who packed your luggage, and whether you are carrying any packages for anyone. If you offer an ambiguous answer, or raise any red flags by your behavior, the grilling continues, and the questions can frankly become irritatingly personal. My ire was up in an airport stop pre-9/11, when, to check whether I was in fact an American Jew, I was asked questions about my Bat Mitzvah. Suspicious behavior results in closer examinations.

– Luggage is X-rayed before check-in. Suspicious items are put in blast-proof containers and moved away to a safe area. The airport doesn’t shut down over a suspicious object.

– Only then comes the walk through the X-ray machine (with your shoes on) and the check of your hand luggage. Yes, they are checking out your bags, but again, they are mainly checking you out. Nobody cares about your bottle of water, baby formula, moisturizer, nail scissors, or tweezers.

The journey through this process, with multiple stations at every stop, is usually fairly rapid for low-risk travelers, even at the height of holiday season.

So, as the Star points out, the Israeli way is both more efficient and more effective. So why not adopt it in the U.S.?

Atlantic journalist/blogger Jeffrey Goldberg, who has flown in and out of Israel frequently, doesn’t believe [5] it will ever work in the United States:

Quote:
 
The Israeli system, which features individual interviews with each traveler, also wouldn’t work because, cow-like though we are, Americans are not going to stand for the invasive questioning that is the most crucial component of the Israeli system. Also, we’d have to show up at the airport five hours ahead of our flights to be processed at the more overcrowded American airports. I’m having a hard time imagining this happening.


But Goldberg just touches on the tip of the iceberg. In addition to its multi-layered approach, Israeli security is deeply dependent on a word that is anathema to the American ear.

Profiling.

Israeli security experts argue that their profiling is based on background and past behavior — not on race.

“We are looking for behavior. We are looking for certain patterns in a person’s background,” security consultant Rafi Ron told CNN [6], explaining the practice in 2006.

But in reality, it’s hard to tell the difference. While Europeans and Israeli Jews who have spent time in Arab countries hostile to Israel and known to contain terrorists are also intensively questioned — the infamous Hindawi affair [7] demonstrates why this is necessary — the vast majority of those who fit the high-risk “behavioral profile” are, of course, Arabs.

Those who are clearly not security risks — in Israel, that means Hebrew-speaking Israeli Jews — sail through the airport at record speed. Frequent business travelers can even have their fingerprints recorded and bypass much of the security apparatus.

The differentiation in treatment has caused social and legal controversy, even in a society as security conscious as Israel.

But it’s not only the fear of a legal and political backlash that makes bringing Israeli standards to the U.S. problematic. The tremendous costs of doing so on such a massive scale is also a factor. Nowhere is that more clear than when it comes to the question of manpower. From the minute your car pulls into Ben-Gurion Airport, you not only know that you are under surveillance. You also know that you are being watched by trained, intelligent, and motivated young people. This contrasts with the often bored and frustrated low-wage workers who man the X-ray stations in the U.S. and who joke with their friends as they stare at the screens and wand the unhappy passengers.

Israel’s universal army service offers a large pool of candidates for such jobs. The vast majority of security personnel at Ben-Gurion and at El Al counters across the world are students earning money to put themselves through school and build their resume. The El Al personnel working abroad are subsidized by the Israeli government.

Much creative thinking and funding would have to be applied to bring the TSA ranks in American airports to that level.

While mimicking Israeli security in detail may be impractical at the moment, there are certainly lessons to be learned, and Israeli consultants have been happy to teach them. Ron, working as a security consultant to the Miami and Boston airports in the wake of 9/11, has demonstrated that the principles of the Israeli approach of “get inside their heads, not inside their bags” can be used to improve security [8], as he told a Tampa newspaper.

Law enforcement officers are trained to identify suspicious behaviors and engage passengers in “constructive conversations” that can elicit valuable information about where a person has been, where he’s going, and what he might be up to.

Though no terrorists have been found at either airport, Ron says the program has led to the arrest of people who have “certain common denominators” with terrorists such as traveling under false identities or concealing weapons or substances.

“This is a very good indication to us that the program actually works,” he says, “and that when terrorists arrive there is a fair chance we’ll be able to pick them up.”

Israelis won’t settle for “a fair chance.” But traditionally, in Israel, when it comes to the inevitable tension between civil liberties and national security, it’s security that wins out, and legal challenges to airport profiling have been generally unsuccessful in changing the reality on the ground. This could change following Israel’s Association for Civil Rights petitioning the Supreme Court [9] to outlaw “racist, humiliating airport checks against Arab citizens” — but the odds are slim.

The question is whether the time has come when a large and powerful democracy like the U.S. must take a page from the playbook of the small and vulnerable Israel.

Resistance to adopting the Israeli model in the U.S. is understandable. The idea of subjecting profiled airline passengers to Israeli-style intensive questioning in the U.S. may not seem pretty.

But then again, the idea of every airline passenger in the U.S. being physically searched as a potential crotch bomber is even more unappealing. Taking account of our footwear before flying is one thing. Being forced to contemplate our choice of underwear is quite another.

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"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Quote:
 
Frequent business travelers can even have their fingerprints recorded and bypass much of the security apparatus.


There's no reason this cannot, and should not, work in the U.S.

Just establish some sort of voluntary national ID. To get it, you have to go through a very detailed background check. Once you have it, though, you get a national ID card with your fingerprints, retinal scan, etc. recorded, and you are eligible for expedited review at airports and the like.

I imagine the ACLU would go spinning into orbit about that, but there's no reason it can't work, if it's voluntary.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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George K
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Finally
Quirt, would you be as enthusiastic if it were not voluntary?
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
I've said, on this board, for many years, that I support a national ID card.

I'd probably be less enthusiastic about an intrusive background check if it wasn't voluntary. Not necessarily opposed, but less enthusiastic.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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George K
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Finally
That's what I was getting to. You were pretty explicit in your post in this thread:
Quote:
 
Just establish some sort of voluntary national ID. To get it, you have to go through a very detailed background check. Once you have it, though, you get a national ID card with your fingerprints, retinal scan, etc. recorded, and you are eligible for expedited review at airports and the like.
I know that you support a national ID. I was wondering if that support still exists if it were mandatory (and free paid for by taxes for all citizens, legal aliens, etc.).
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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